Rolling 2017 Thread on Race

Absolutely.

Where did I say that we need to abandon politics in order to control the narrative.

What I can say, what I feel in my bones, is that if we focus on elections to the detriment of responding directly to these groups, their message will win.

all of last year was the message winning so much and it amounted to nothing. it amounted to way worse than nothing, it amounted to this.

2018 is almost a year away. where are the fresh new candidates for the left? skip the nazi rally and run for office.

oh ok

where are the fresh new candidates for the left?

Dems are fielding candidates in record numbers last time I checked but thx for false equivalencies

So basically, you don't understand English.

I'm much more likely to trust a candidate with a strong track record of protesting nazi rallies.

"Don't do x to the be exclusion of y" does not and will never mean the same thing as "Do not do x, do y instead." I am saying we need to do both. You are yelling at an argument that I not only haven't made but would NEVER make.

If you're going to swing in here all disdainful dick-swinger and denigrate a person of color's argument that the white audience he is talking to needs to do more to fight neo-Nazis, at least demonstrate a basic ability to read.

tbf to adam white supremacy is literally inconsequential to him since he is white

this is what white privilege is adam

we do not decide laws based on who is louder and more aggressive, for good reason

cf your unshakable belief in "law"

do i need to make of list of laws that help you and hurt me and/or dan?

spent a long time on the internet today arguing with a white southern law professor who kept saying things like "my fundamental principles are intellectual liberty and the rule of law which is why i reject political violence"

it's easy to make your prime motivation intellectual liberty when your basic physical safety isn't an issue, it's easy to believe in the rule of law when the law is literally always on your side

thank you ILE for recognizing when someone (me) is triggered and stepping back politely

i say this with absolutely zero sarcasm - i really appreciate it

we sling around "tone deaf" as an insult here but really this place is about 10^6 times better than most of the internet

it's easy to make your prime motivation intellectual liberty when your basic physical safety isn't an issue, it's easy to believe in the rule of law when the law is literally always on your side

i whole-heartedly agree. i didn't want to argue w someone who i largely agree with plus it's true, im white, as a white man in a system of white male supremacy, i am privileged, so its def not my place to dominate the conversation. i dont want to claim to speak for anyone else. i can only offer my own viewpoint. fwiw i dont want to make a big deal out of that (for fear of mansplaining/centering the conversation on me) or how much i understand the plight (cos i can never truly understand, i can only try).

do i need to make of list of laws that help you and hurt me and/or dan?

the list would be far too innumerable, if not fully comprehensible and anyways it doesn't seem restricted to certain laws, it includes laws designed to help that have been abused by a crooked system and crooked individuals. even a well-meaning law exercised by a hateful person can still do harm.

i think a list of solutions, laws/policies we can support, would be a good way forward. what is the best way to make progress? educational reform? justice reform? prison reform? there is a lot of potential energy for doing good. the 60s civil rights era seems like a good model for organizing boycotts, building networks, and my faith for the potential for the non-violence and rule of law to do some good.

much <3 and thanks, adam

tbh I don't have a ton of faith in non-violence and the rule of law, and a fair amount of that is rooted in the object lessons from the 60s civil rights era. I said it on the alt-right thread, but non-violence as a political tactic only works when the goal is to appeal to an audience or portion of the opposition that is capable of shame (like the British, or Rockefeller Republicans). The modern-day GOP is not capable of shame, esp Trump's hardcore base of racist morons. It is not in their psychological make-up. There is no line that their fearless leader or his supporters can cross that would make them question their commitment. It isn't going to happen. Pictures of Trump and his supporters violently beating/murdering/assaulting non-violent protestors will *not* alter this basic calculus, unfortunately. It won't even make McConnell or Ryan or Meadows or anyone else in the GOP turn on him or their party. These fools are all in.

I guess I'm arguing ultimately that a variety of tactics are valid and will need to be employed, depending on the context and the situation. I opted to go to the Swing Left phone bank this Saturday instead of Joey Gibson's "Patriot Prayer" provocation at Crissy Field, because I think in this case it's likely to ultimately be more productive. Sometimes we are going to win by appealing to the courts, but not always. Sometimes we are going to be able to appeal to law enforcement, but not always. Sometimes some Nazi's going to be driving a car at you, and if the best option is to throw a brick through his window than that's totally defensible imo, even if it is technically a crime and as a responsible citizen you should be willing to bear the consequences of it.

Where's this 'British are capable of shame' thingumma coming from?

Jus 'avin a laugh guvnor

(Altho tbf read Gandhi because appealing to shame was central to his ethos)

I don't think Churchill knew the meaning of the word.

the word reform always sounds so toothless

question -- i am finding the silence of my white friends completely horrifying. what do i do?

Get new friends

send them a link to an interfaith vigil

they love those

links

Xp @ LL

I don't know. I think I can only tolerate fictional white people and the occasional ilxor right now. The non-Americans are okay too.

From my end I was all full of furious bluster and rage and it contributed to ruining my vacation and now I feel like I can't think about this anymore for a little while. I realize that option is totally white privilege.

i feel like a lot of people are choosing that not-helpful option
and i understand, and have probably engaged in self-preservation-motivated disengagement propped up by my privilege
it doesn't seem like an option at this point

sad to say but at this point i appreciate some silence ... whole hell of a lot better than a great deal of what i've seen on social media

i like to imagine that if people are silent that means they're listening

that's probably polyanna-ish

and of course who knows who they're listening to and what they're taking away from it

There is also that. I don't have anything to contribute that's new or helpful. I'm sorry if that comes across as complicit or disengaged.

these are the same answers i'm getting elsewhere when i asked the same question
idk what i expected, i guess i just wanted to voice my frustration at what appears to be toxic silence

some people seem afraid of "getting it wrong" and i get that
i don't want to get it wrong any more than anyone else does -- but stepping out on a limb and trying is valuable in this climate
who cares if you get it wrong, at least you tried

I felt like Tomboto was saying he'd previously done that prior to disengaging. sounds like you're saying some of your white friends have just outright ghosted since the incident?

flaming out doesn't help in the long run
maybe there is some long-acting carbs to fuel white people's ability to be engaged

with respect...I think there's a lot of presumption here

I think this is the post I keep returning to ITT from Dan:

At this point, it is not enough to denounce Trump. He is a lightning rod that is sucking up all of the attention and the space. These people are in our cities, extending and amplifying the poison inherent in American culture. We need to acknowledge that poison. We need to acknowledge that these people aren't a few fringe voices no one really pays attention to. Whenever they assemble, we must make sure they understand that we have heard their message and it is unwelcome. How you contribute to this is up to you; I can't speak to anyone's capability for protest and/or violence, nor do I think it is my place to tell you the most effective way to reject and counter this message. What I can say, what I feel in my bones, is that if we focus on elections to the detriment of responding directly to these groups, their message will win. If you look at these rolling threads over the past few years and see how so many of these situations have played out, their message is already winning. We shouldn't allow that to happen.

― this iphone speaks many languages (DJP), Monday, August 14, 2017 11:35 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

simply put, saying "let's just ignore these Fringe weirdos, they're harmless little gnats that will go away and we'll take back the White House and...problem solved" is not going to cut it.

there are 9 White Nationalist rallies this weekend in major cities. can start by protesting at one of them if anybody is nearby.

Took a page from Shakey and signed up for Swing Left. It's the bare minimum.

i agree with that completely
How you contribute to this is up to you; I can't speak to anyone's capability for protest and/or violence, nor do I think it is my place to tell you the most effective way to reject and counter this message.
silence can be interpreted so many ways that it is not a valid counter-message

oops that was xp

https://www.facebook.com/events/266804640483421/

I am not sure if my temple is going to be represented at that just yet but I suspect so

The "March on Google" ones are all cancelled

Daily Stormer now hosted by... (wait for it)

Russia

er wait I take that back, looks like Cloudflare still has it? these fucking people.

Thanks for update Tombot

corporate responsibility: https://www.paypal.com/stories/us/paypals-aup-remaining-vigilant-on-hate-violence-intolerance

http://www.scpr.org/news/2017/08/16/74727/hollywood-forever-cemetery-to-remove-confederate-m/

Much of my point is that when the social contract unambiguously states that various minor, daily interactions where racist things occur are unacceptable, putting your head down and ignoring them is an understandable and sometimes valid response. That contract is broken right now; it will only be fixed if we assert it.

Basically, I'm asking everyone who hates the direction we are heading in to take on a level of discomfort in their interactions with other that they may have previously avoided. I'm not asking anyone to sacrifice or martyr themselves and I'm not asking for 100% full-on "SMASH RACISTS" behavior; I'm asking for people to tell those close to them or in their orbits who may express views that prop up the shitshow we're currently going through that they are not on board with it. I can't tell anyone else how to do that; part of the work we all need to do is to figure out how to have those conversations. The point of having those conversations is to reassert that what we are seeing right now is wrong. Asserting that what we are seeing is wrong is part of building a consensus around a grass-roots movement to combat it, in our daily interactions, through active protest, and in engagement with the civil process so we support putting people who will fight this in positions of power and exert political force on the people already in power until they feel it is in their best interests to listen to us.

I feel like you are much more cogent and coherent than I am right now (which is like pure 100% rage-space)