Pazz & Jop 1985: Critical Hindsight Two Decades On

lots of college rock nobody remotely cares about anymore spread thruout

The most accurate description of this in-hindsight-bizarre list as I see it. The Fall and Sonic Youth definitely the most glaring omissions, they are what I was listening to and playing on the radio that year. And Psychic TV were still good back then!

Other faves from the year: Foetus' Nail, 2nd Rhythm & Noise album Chasms Accord, Cocteau's Treasure, Shriekback's Oil And Gold, Halber Mensch.... jeez. A lot.

scarecrow is way better than little creatures, which i can't stand. urgh, just thinking about "and she was" gets my panties in a bunch. fuck, now it's gonna be in my head all night. la! la! la! la! out you piece of shit!!!

Indeed. Rhythm & Romance is fuckin' great.

Are we speaking about critics here or artists?

Can someone give me a bit of perspective here: in the alt-y circles I ran in around this time, people listened to New Order and the Cure but the Smiths didn't seem to break until Louder Than Bombs. (And we're talking provincial US). Is this how it really was, or is this just a weird local idiosyncracy?

Although there's admittedly some dubious stuff on the list (Jason and the Scorchers?) there's certainly more than five worth hearing. My favorite coffeehouse in Moscow has the cover of "Lost in the Stars" painted on the wall. Shocking when I first noticed it.

1 Tom Waits - Rain Dogs
2 Sam Cooke - Live at the Harlem Square Club, 1963
3 The Replacements - Tim
4 Iron Maiden - Live After Death
5 Kate Bush - Hounds of Love
6 The Pogues - Rum, Sodomy and the Lash
7 The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace
8 Hüsker Dü - New Day Rising
9 The Jesus and Mary Chain - Psychocandy
10 Marillion - Misplaced Childhood
11 Exodus - Bonded by Blood
12 Prefab Sprout - Steve McQueen (UK) / Two Wheels Good (US)
13 New Order - Low-Life
14 The Cure - The Head on the Door
15 The Smiths - Meat is Murder
16 The Cult - Love
17 Celtic Frost - To Mega Therion
18 Possessed - Seven Churches
19 S.O.D. - Stormtroopers of Death - Speak English or Die
20 The Sisters of Mercy - First and Last and Always
21 The Waterboys - This Is the Sea
22 Butthole Surfers - Psychic...Powerless...Another Man's Sac
23 Suzanne Vega - Suzanne Vega
24 Hüsker Dü - Flip Your Wig
25 Einstürzende Neubauten - Halber Mensch
26 Camper Van Beethoven - Telephone Free Landslide Victory
27 Ry Cooder - Paris, Texas [OST]
28 The Chameleons - What Does Anything Mean? Basically
29 Foetus - Nail
30 The Legendary Pink Dots - Asylum
31 Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms
32 Meat Puppets - Up on the Sun
33 Anthrax - Spreading the Disease
34 D.R.I. - Dealing With It
35 Slayer - Hell Awaits
36 Propaganda - A Secret Wish
37 Tears for Fears - Songs from the Big Chair
38 R.E.M. - Fables of the Reconstruction
39 Yello - Stella
40 IQ - The Wake
41 Stevie Ray Vaughan - Soul to Soul
42 Hoodoo Gurus - Mars Needs Guitars!
43 Christian Death - Ashes
44 Death in June - NADA!
45 Sting - The Dream of the Blue Turtles
46 Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds - The Firstborn Is Dead
47 Prince - Around the World in a Day
48 John Cougar Mellencamp - Scarecrow
49 LL Cool J - Radio
50 Scorpions - World Wide Live
51 CCCP - Affinità-divergenze fra il compagno Togliatti e noi - Del conseguimento della maggiore età
52 Mekons - Fear and Whiskey
53 Magnum - On a Storyteller's Night
54 Scritti Politti - Cupid & Psyche '85
55 Sonic Youth - Bad Moon Rising
56 Beat Farmers - Tales of the New West
57 Bathory - The Return...
58 "Weird Al" Yankovic - Dare To Be Stupid
59 The Dead Milkmen - Big Lizard in My Backyard
60 Sade - Promise
61 Robert Wyatt - Old Rottenhat
62 Dexys Midnight Runners - Don't Stand Me Down
63 Killing Joke - Night Time
64 Allan Holdsworth - Metal Fatigue
65 John Fogerty - Centerfield
66 Talking Heads - Little Creatures
67 Bryan Ferry - Boys and Girls
68 Wynton Marsalis - Black Codes (From The Underground)
69 a-ha - Hunting High and Low
70 Half Man Half Biscuit - Back in the DHSS
71 Run-D.M.C. - King of Rock
72 Rush - Power Windows
73 Big Audio Dynamite - This Is Big Audio Dynamite
74 Amebix - Arise!
75 The Descendents - I Don't Want to Grow Up
76 Shriekback - Oil and Gold
77 Dead Kennedys - Frankenchrist
78 Brian Eno - Thursday Afternoon
79 Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians - Fegmania!
80 Richard Thompson - Across A Crowded Room
81 Mantronix - The Album
82 Oingo Boingo - Dead Man's Party
83 Kreator - Endless Pain
84 Love and Rockets - Seventh Dream of Teenage Heaven
85 Steve Reich - The Desert Music
86 7 Seconds - Walk Together, Rock Together
87 Sielun Veljet - L'amourha
88 Overkill - Feel The Fire
89 Jason & The Scorchers - Lost & Found
90 Minutemen - 3-Way Tie for Last
91 INXS - Listen Like Thieves
92 Dinosaur Jr. - Dinosaur
93 Wang Chung - To Live and Die in L.A. [OST]
94 Yngwie Malmsteen - Marching Out
95 Beat Happening - Beat Happening
96 Eurythmics - Be Yourself Tonight
97 Arcadia - So Red the Rose
98 Radio Futura - De un país en llamas
99 Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers - Southern Accents
100 James Taylor - That's Why I'm Here

It looks like Chuck Eddy wrote a metal book about 1985 alone... Except he hates Iron Maiden...

Okay, I kid. But it is quite... Loud... Does that site always skew so Hessian?

That was the frustrating thing - it seemed like everything was a watered down version of something that was done better just a few years back. I'd been listening to KUNI, a college station that broadcast throughout Iowa, with shows covering punk, post-punk, new wave, experimental electronic stuff, reggae, early hip hop pretty comprehensively. I was absorbing all that, and wondering why nearly all the good bands seemed to have combusted by 1983. I felt like I was stuck in a wasteland with no new music to call my own. I appreciated how The Smiths and Cure really spoke to the adolescent condition, but I felt more than half the songs on their current albums were shit.

Hindsight trickled in some good finds, and plenty of spotty albums with a couple good tracks. But I'd say '85 was the low point of the 80s. No wonder the 20th anniversary felt like deja vu...

www.acclaimedmusic.net

1 The Jesus and Mary Chain Psychocandy
2 Tom Waits Rain Dogs
3 Prefab Sprout Steve McQueen/Two Wheels Good
4 The Pogues Rum, Sodomy & the Lash
5 Kate Bush Hounds of Love
6 Hüsker Dü New Day Rising
7 New Order Low-Life
8 The Replacements Tim
9 The Fall This Nation's Saving Grace
10 Sam Cooke Live at the Harlem Square Club 1963
11 Dire Straits Brothers in Arms
12 The Waterboys This Is the Sea
13 LL Cool J Radio
14 The Cure The Head on the Door
15 The Smiths Meat Is Murder
16 Hüsker Dü Flip Your Wig
17 The Velvet Underground VU
18 Sting The Dream of the Blue Turtles
19 Talking Heads Little Creatures
20 R.E.M. Fables of Reconstruction
21 John Cougar Mellencamp Scarecrow
22 Eurythmics Be Yourself Tonight
23 Meat Puppets Up on the Sun
24 Prince and The Revolution Around the World in a Day
25 Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds The Firstborn Is Dead
26 The Mekons Fear and Whiskey
27 Scritti Politti Cupid & Psyche 85
28 Suzanne Vega Suzanne Vega
29 Dexy's Midnight Runners Don't Stand Me Down
30 Whitney Houston Whitney Houston
31 Mantronix Mantronix: The Album
32 John Fogerty Centerfield
33 The Blasters Hard Line
34 Simple Minds Once Upon a Time
35 Keith Jarrett Standards Live
36 The Sisters of Mercy First and Last and Always
37 Einstürzende Neubauten 1/2 Mensch
38 Robyn Hitchcock and The Egyptians Fegmania!
39 The Style Council Our Favourite Shop/Internationalists
40 Luther Vandross The Night I Fell in Love
41 The Golden Palominos Visions of Excess
42 Marillion Misplaced Childhood
43 Tears for Fears Songs from the Big Chair
44 Bryan Ferry Boys and Girls
45 Artists United Against Apartheid Sun City
46 Simply Red Picture Book
47 Barbra Streisand The Broadway Album
48 Run-D.M.C. King of Rock
49 The Cult Love

Rate Your Music. What is that???

Let me guess. You were between 6-12, if that, then. What's Hessian about this list?? And what does Hessian mean?

I was one year out of my Ph.D and Judas Priest was outselling all the few metal bands on this feeble "list" combined. The mention of the Scorpions second and very duff live album as significant only reveals the compilers as morons. And Bathory must have sold all of 700 copies. I think I knew half the people who bought them.

this is an experiment...how much does marijuana REALLY impair one's memory...wading back thru the haze..not in order...10pts...letsee

New Order - Low Life
Talking Heads - Little Creatures
John Cougar Mellencamp - Scarecrow
Eurthymics - Be Yourself Tonight
Scritti Politti - Cupid & Psyche 85
The Fall -- This Nation's Saving Grace
Prefab Sprout -- Two Wheels Good
Various Artists -- GoGo Crankin'

after this I'm blanking out...maybe Sonic Youth Minutemen & Tones On Tail? I definitely reviewed 3Way Tie For Last in 86 tho.

singles I voted for "Sun City" "Death Valley 69" and I don't know what else. OH YEAH "Running Up That Hill" by Kate Bush and "Single Life" by Cameo, my anthem at that point in time.

COMMENTS: Tim was the universal rock critics' fave rave. Dinosaur Jr didn't attract much attention until their 2nd album IIRC. Scarecrow was widely admired for its "politics." I liked the fiddle. I was a major Smiths fan, reviewed the debut in the Village Voice and must admit I thought Meat Is Murder was a stinker, then and now. in 1985 the general hostility against the Smiths among rock critics was intense and near universal in the States however, Morrissey really got on people's nerves.

Could you give me some examples of this? I don't see any.

I was 16 in 1985.

What's Hessian about this list??

Lotsa metal. Not even a complaint necessarily as I am a huge supporter of the dark arts. In fact, Feel The Fire (#88) was the first piece of vinyl I owned right after I got my first turntable. But it is pretty pervasive on that list. I haven't looked at 1986 - possibly the best year ever for metal - but it must be quite loud.

And what does Hessian mean?

Wiki

2) Interesting how important a political POV seemed to be in 1985. Four years of Reagan I guess.

I'm relieved that some things never change.

this always strikes me strange about now - considering all the hate you hear about Bush, you'd think "college radio" would be full of political music.

American Idiot sewed up that market.

If I remember right, this was around the time Dave Marsh said that Lionel Richie's "Penny Lover" would be more of a landmark/influence on the future than anything the Smiths did. I kinda hope he gets up every day, gets down on his knees and prays to Whatever Deity is Out There If Any that at least he didn't say it was the video for "Hello."

Hello? [This is Spencer Chow's first and only thread. Please read even if you hate me because I think it is very important.]

Now, The Queen is Dead vs Dancing on the Ceiling? Keats and Yeats are on Lionel's side, but Wilde is on Moz's.

BB, it's to do with this assumption then that somehow listening to the Talking Heads made you automatically superior to rock and pop filth. This is in large part why I hate the Talking Heads.

Ned: I'm surprised you of all people are blaming fans and marketing for your distaste.

Little Creatures was more about punks growing middle-aged, settling down having kids etc. Sounded boring and complacent when I put it on a couple years ago, Talking Heads at the worst IMO.

Talking Heads for the Borders buyers before it existed? I guess it was forward reaching after all.

now that I'm a bonafide middle-aged parent I can see Little Creatures is more like bohemians passing 30, but same diff.

I think Lovebug is putting it best here. At best I am savagely indifferent to Graceland, a song or two aside. And I used to own THAT as well, so my annoyance is not simply based on fans and marketing, thank you very much. (I seriously think Talking Heads are easily the most overrated band of the last thirty years. [Last fifty -- the Stones, of course.])

R&B was below most rock critics' radar creens in 1985. Thinking back, I must've chosen "Hanging On A String (Contemplating)" by Loose Ends and "Nightshift' by Commodores as top singles. Otherwise, drawing a blank. I can't check my reference books right now and determine whether 1985 was a good year overall for R&B. The fact that I need to look it up might not be a good sign.

1985 was kind of a hangover year after 1984. Look that year up.

This should help you out:

http://rockmetonight.blogspot.com/2004_03_01_rockmetonight_archive.html

Dancing In The Key Of Life Steve Arrington

was definitely on my Top Ten and my turntable in 1985

Debarge's "Rhythm of the Night" was great! And The Night I Fell In Love. And Jeffry Osborne and (sigh) Whitney Houston. Guess it was a pretty good year, coming off a halfdecade of great ones.

I loved Meat is Murder (still my favorite Smiths album, my only favorite Smiths album really). I remember seeing some favorable reviews of the Smiths at around this time, but it was mostly a word of mouth/heard them played in clubs type of thing for me.

Kinda makes me wonder about Christgau's annual cries of the institutional racisim in Pazz & Jop.

Can someone give me a bit of perspective here: in the alt-y circles I ran in around this time, people listened to New Order and the Cure but the Smiths didn't seem to break until Louder Than Bombs. (And we're talking provincial US). Is this how it really was, or is this just a weird local idiosyncracy?

-- mitya doesn't need no stinkin' password (mity...), January 18th, 2006 12:02 AM.

From the East Coast perspective, Meat Is Murder was The Smiths' breakthrough, courtesy of "How Soon Is Now."

Christgau put Sonic Youth's "I Killed Christgau With My Big Fucking Dick" on his singles list, but that was likely more revenge-motivated than content-motivated seeing as how he appended the parenthetical "And Now It Don't Work No More."

http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/deans85.php

The Rate Your Music poll is much more on-point than the Pazz & Jop, both from a hindsight perspective and from an at-the-time perspective.

# of P&J top 10 albums I purchased in 1985: 3
# of RYM top 10 albums I purchased in 1985: 6

The RYM top 40 is a lot more eclectic than the P&J, which is indicative of critics' groupthink tendencies, especially when it comes to end of year lists. I'd much rather get stuck on a desert island with the RYM list than P&J's, if only to get the goodies by Foetus, Einsturzende, The Fall, and Butthole Surfers.

Other juicy '85 obscurities:
Killing Joke - Night Time
Black Flag - In My Head
Live Skull - Bringing Home The Bait
Slovenly - After the Original Style
Big Black - Racer X ('84?)
Swans - Raping A Slave ('84?)
Drunks With Guns first 7"
Schooly D - PSK What Does It Mean? 12"
9353 - We Are Absolutely Sure There Is No God