What's the best Genesis album?

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Sure. But it does discredit an occasional looseness and spontaneity as an attribute.

Rush were never about jamming/improvising and neither really were Genesis, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it and of course being musicians of their calibre I'm sure they could. Basically, your argument boils down to "Collins is a better drummer because he's done more session work", and I disagree.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:37 (one year ago) Permalink

Peart > Bruford > Palmer > Collins > White

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:41 (one year ago) Permalink

i might as well add to this clusterfuck by asserting that genesis vs. rush is not a great debate to me because i do not feel that Rush is prog qua prog anyway, they are a hard rock band with prog tendencies.

I can't articulate why but trust me I am absolutely right.

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:54 (one year ago) Permalink

..and sh@kedown has it right as well

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:01 (one year ago) Permalink

Yep, they were very much that from 1975-1977 ... but it highlights another strength Rush have over Genesis: they rocked more. Like I said earlier, no far-too-long meandering 12 string guitar detours.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:05 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush were never about jamming/improvising and neither really were Genesis

the majority of genesis songs were born out of collective jamming

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:07 (one year ago) Permalink

they talk about this all the time

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:07 (one year ago) Permalink

xxpost:

I mean, it's called progressive rock, so too right the rocking is important.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:09 (one year ago) Permalink

I see the bands as having different goals.

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:12 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush also had a musical sense of humor that Genesis lacked.

I firmly come down on the Rush side of the debate. And I agree Rush isn't really a prog band. I just won't say Peart is a better drummer than Collins. The latter is (was) a virtuoso, but was so much more versatile. Peart is the best Rush drummer we will ever see, which is enough, but not everything. Each one of the most creative drummers ever, regardless.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:13 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush also had a musical sense of humor that Genesis lacked.

Which is also to say, Rush may or may not be prog, but they most certainly were never art-rock.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:15 (one year ago) Permalink

xxxpost:

It doesn't matter how the songs were born - I'm perfectly sure several Rush songs were written and arranged that way and I know for a fact that the majority of Genesis songs weren't born out of collective jamming - maybe after Duke, certainly not before. Genesis' finished songs were mostly as set in stone as Rush's were.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:17 (one year ago) Permalink

I'd argue that Rush in the '80s were art rock.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:20 (one year ago) Permalink

the new Gier

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:26 (one year ago) Permalink

I know for a fact that the majority of Genesis songs weren't born out of collective jamming

the lamb was born out of jamming! they talk about it in the freakin' doc!

i mean improvisation is just fast composition blah blah blah

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:28 (one year ago) Permalink

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway =/= "the majority of Genesis songs"

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:39 (one year ago) Permalink

phil also made the v labored point in the lamb reissue doc that the lamb and "hold on my heart" were the product of people playing in a room together and that that's the thing tying the whole genesis discography together but ok pls enjoy yourself turrican

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:44 (one year ago) Permalink

LOL @ "the new Geir" ... Wasn't Gabriel-era Genesis Geir's favourite band? Doubt he would have stood for them being compared unfavourably to Rush. He woulda been wrong, but no surprises there.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:45 (one year ago) Permalink

Wow, Genesis played in a room together, fucking hell...

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:46 (one year ago) Permalink

Anyway, I'm gonna give A Trick of the Tail another spin, I'm in the mood to listen to the not-at-all-arranged-or-composed-and-totally-improvised likes of 'Dance on a Volcano' and 'Los Endos', not to mention 'Mad Man Moon' and the title track, which I hear Banks improvised from beginning to end and then brought to the band...

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:53 (one year ago) Permalink

For what it's worth, Gabriel-era Genesis had mystique. Rush never did. Not a criticism, and Genesis never rocked as hard.

More importantly, who wore the better '80s hair? Was it Phil's never ending mullet or Geddy's raccoon hat?

dinnerboat, Friday, 14 July 2017 18:06 (one year ago) Permalink

Josh has it right -- Peart is a technician; adept, yes, but still a craftsman.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "technician" and "craftsman", this is not at all what I get from Josh's posts. If anything, he seems to be arguing that Collins is superior as a technician while Peart is so idiosyncratic that he only really works with Rush.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:11 (one year ago) Permalink

I don't think Collins is a superior technician, but I do think they are equally good drummers. Just that Peart's playing is pretty much only suited to Rush, whereas Collins can and does play well in numerous situations. Like, I have no doubt Vinnie Colaiuta could play anything Peart could, and then some, but Peart could not play "Nightshift" by the Commodores. And I have no doubt that Jeff Porcaro could play Rush songs, too, but Peart could not play "Billie Jean." Or Steely Dan, for that matter. Not that he needs to! Peart is perfect for Rush, and exceptional. But it's sort of like a conversation I had with a friend about the Edge. I don't rate the Edge as a guitar player, but if I was forming a U2 tribute band he would absolutely be my first pick. (Except Peart is awesome, of course.)

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 18:24 (one year ago) Permalink

Porcaro was a great drummer and everything, but... no!

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:27 (one year ago) Permalink

Y'see, Peart has very rarely done any work outside of Rush, but this has little to do with how well Peart would cope outside of Rush, and more to do with... well, if you're in a band with musicians of the calibre as the three members of Rush, then anything else is going to feel like a step down.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:31 (one year ago) Permalink

and y'know, it's turned into a TS: Collins vs. Peart, but Lee also knocks Rutherford into a cocked hat bass-wise and Lifeson is superior to Hackett. Rush didn't have a keyboard player per se., but they could always be relied on to provide tasteful synthesiser sounds on their records. Some of the synth sounds on Abacab and Genesis are a bit obnoxious.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:34 (one year ago) Permalink

Lee also knocks Rutherford into a cocked hat bass-wise and Lifeson is superior to Hackett.

No argument on this front.

musicians of the calibre as the three members of Rush, then anything else is going to feel like a step down.

Ha, this is no doubt how someone like, say, John McLaughlin might think of a band like Rush! (No offense to Rush intended.)

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 18:48 (one year ago) Permalink

yeah i mean i like Rush but like I don't know like there's like several thousand jazz dudes that would knock them on their butts

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:57 (one year ago) Permalink

or like Rik Emmitt from Triumph just to site another Canadian 70s/80s power trio, I'd say he's on par with Lifeson

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:58 (one year ago) Permalink

Seriously? Rik Emmett?

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 14 July 2017 19:14 (one year ago) Permalink

I like Triumph fine on the radio (and own Thunder Seven) but they seem like pretty straightforward AOR to me. I can't recall anything where they've done the ambitious things Rush did with rhythm and harmony; nor do I think Emmett showed a command of a couple of different rock guitar styles like Lifeson did.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 14 July 2017 19:24 (one year ago) Permalink

Also, you had Banks/Collins/Rutherford as the three-piece Genesis line-up, but they required extra musicians in order to play live - not so with Rush, who could replicate everything with only the three of them. Geddy multitasking with synths, bass, pedals and vocals. That's talent.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 19:25 (one year ago) Permalink

Seriously? Rik Emmett?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, July 14, 2017 2:14 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha ok i'm trolling but i find this whole conversation really bad IMO

Question: is Rush better or worse musicians than Booker T & the MGs?

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 19:42 (one year ago) Permalink

Ha

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 14 July 2017 19:50 (one year ago) Permalink

Actually, come to think of it, Tony Banks is no Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman or Patrick Moraz either. Far from that level, I'd say.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 19:57 (one year ago) Permalink

Turrican - wanna buy you a beer now; you're taste is yours alone. You can't really like Genesis if you don't appreciate Banks.

Josh/Sund4r -- Peart is like a cabinet maker, in the best sense.

...try Webb or Tate if you like drums

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 20:04 (one year ago) Permalink

it is i think p widely accepted that beyond collins genesis were kinda not as qualified as other prog bands chops-wise but they had a unusually great pop sensibility

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 20:10 (one year ago) Permalink

"tony banks is no rick wakeman" wow you're blowing my mind

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 20:10 (one year ago) Permalink

Thank God

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 21:21 (one year ago) Permalink

What happened to this thread.

Tim F, Friday, 14 July 2017 21:21 (one year ago) Permalink

xxpost:

Well, it's true - I'm unsure about them having an "unusally great" pop sensibility too, at least not until later on.

However, despite Genesis' limitations I think they made some great music together - and when it's great, it's really great.

Remember, I never once said that I hated Genesis, just that Rush were the superior band.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 21:25 (one year ago) Permalink

I'm unsure about them having an "unusally great" pop sensibility too

supper's ready is catchy as shit

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 21:30 (one year ago) Permalink

anyway tim f otm

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 21:30 (one year ago) Permalink

This thread is a prog epic. So many parts!

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 21:37 (one year ago) Permalink

The message board version of "Gates Of Delirium "!

Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 14 July 2017 21:42 (one year ago) Permalink

"X band is clearly superior to Y band on the following Z criteria" is the part of ILM that deservedly gets written out of official history.

Tim F, Friday, 14 July 2017 21:44 (one year ago) Permalink

X, the band, is clearly superior to Yes on the following Zomg! criteria.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 21:46 (one year ago) Permalink

^^^^ allowable

Tim F, Friday, 14 July 2017 21:47 (one year ago) Permalink

*cranks Moving Pictures*

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 21:50 (one year ago) Permalink

One thing I was wondering last night was "who was heavily influenced by the post-prog Genesis albums?"

Duke is too prog I think to sound too much like stuff that isn't also at least partially steeped in prog traditions. As I said upthread it reminds me a lot of Marillion's Clutching at Straws, which I guess was an example of a band who had effectively been histrionic early-Genesis understudies grappling with the same question of how to transition to "proper" songwriting (rather than just "pop" per se), and is also the only Marillion album I listen to very much.

But surely there must have been many artists influenced by Abacab / Genesis / Invisible Touch? And I don't mean in a generic "no one got out of the 80s alive" sense, but as in, these particular albums (or maybe just one of them!) were a specific stylistic touchstone??

In some ways these three albums sound very, erm, "Canadian" to me? I wonder if Jane Siberry was a fan of this era of Genesis?

Tim F, Friday, 14 July 2017 21:58 (one year ago) Permalink


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