What's the best Genesis album?

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Ha, well, you got me there. Really, as my list above shows, I just listen to the albums with Gabriel and Hackett.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 14 July 2017 01:38 (one year ago) Permalink

Oh, i'm pissed; but not for that --it's this talk of Rush that makes me ill.

Never the twain.

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 05:17 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush were the superior band, though, in terms of energy (no longer-than-they-need-to-be meandering 12 string guitar detours), playing/instrumental proficiency (Peart > Collins, obviously), production (even the early Rush LP's sound better than Trespass and Nursery Cryme), songwriting ('Turn it on Again' is excellent, but not as excellent as 'The Spirit of Radio' ... also '2112' and 'Cygnus X-1: Book II' are superior compositions to 'Supper's Ready'), lyricism ('Subdivisions' alone crushes anything Genesis came up with), adaptability (Rush absorbed new wave elements far more successfully) etc. I could go on and on...

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 12:41 (one year ago) Permalink

I think I'd disagree on the songwriting, plus both Collins and Gabriel are better vocalists than Geddy Lee. I'd struggle to choose although I'm not a huge fan of either band - though I do really like both in places.

Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 14 July 2017 12:53 (one year ago) Permalink

Yeah, Gabriel and Collins are both better singers and have better voices that are easier to listen to and Genesis probably sold more records, but overall Rush crush Genesis in every way.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 13:02 (one year ago) Permalink

(and I like Genesis)

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 13:02 (one year ago) Permalink

but overall Rush crush Genesis in every way.

These kind of statements...

I mean - come on.

Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 14 July 2017 13:32 (one year ago) Permalink

Both bands have made their share of good to great albums. What are you basing the crushing power of Rush on lol?

Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 14 July 2017 13:35 (one year ago) Permalink

Ok - just saw your post upthread. Wow.

Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 14 July 2017 13:36 (one year ago) Permalink

I think Genesis absorbed the New Wave ( and US r&b) influences so well they appeared like almost natural fits when it happened. Rush sounded awkward at times when incorporating New Wave elements.

Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 14 July 2017 13:40 (one year ago) Permalink

I disagree, I think that the run of albums from Permanent Waves to Power Windows sound very natural and unforced in their adoption of New Wave styles.

Duke sounds natural and unforced too, but I can't say the same for Abacab and Genesis, particularly the former.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:09 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush blow after Signals; only drooling fan-boys would fail to see that Genesis have at least a half-dozen classic records where Rush have maybe two.

...and i like Rush

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 14:36 (one year ago) Permalink

Genesis have 6 classics, whereas Rush have 8 - so there y'go, yet another level on which Rush annihilate Genesis.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:41 (one year ago) Permalink

i don't think any of the rush albums that absorb new wave are as consistent as duke, abacab, or even shapes

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:41 (one year ago) Permalink

also peart is a terrible lyricist

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:43 (one year ago) Permalink

xpost Not Moving Pictures or Permanent Waves or Signals? I disagree.

Peart > Collins, obviously

No way. They are very different drummers, but Peart is not "clearly" superior, unless you subscribe to the Peart-is-the-greatest-drummer-of-all-time stance. Collins and Peart are equally creative and talented, and for a time equally busy/chops-heavy. Still, not to bash on Peart at all (because he's awesome and I like Rush better than Genesis, too), but I couldn't imagine him filling all the stylistic roles Collins has, from Zep to Motown to fusion to ... I mean, it just goes on. Collins is like one of those great session drummers able to impart his own personality with each performance. And he grooves and swings, which Peart, for all his awesomeness, just doesn't do much of. Or need to do!

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 14:44 (one year ago) Permalink

80-82 is my favourite era of Rush so I do think they win on the new wave front. That said I've never thought of Genesis as being particularly new wavy anyway bar a handful of songs - their '80s albums are quite eclectic but to me they lean more towards just straight MOR/rock. I guess there was a lot of overlap at that time.

Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 14 July 2017 14:48 (one year ago) Permalink

Duke and Invisible Touch are the only two albums that could remotely compete with anything that Rush released 1980-1985. In terms of Rush's discography from the beginning up to 1985 and Genesis' discography in the same period, the Rush albums are relatively filler and fat-free.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:48 (one year ago) Permalink

@josh oh i was talking mostly about signals, grace under pressure, and power windows. signals is my fav rush record but even then i don't like it as much as duke. idk, maybe it's time to spend more time with the rush catalog lol

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:50 (one year ago) Permalink

...and here i thought we could be friends. Eight classic Rush records... you're high (and Invisible Touch sux).

Josh; you are wise -- my arguments would be better expressed if filtered through your pen.

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 14:52 (one year ago) Permalink

I find the idea that Peart doesn't "groove" or "swing" really funny and pretty much demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the guy's drumming. Of course, naturally, from a purely technical perspective alone Peart > Collins, but there's more to Peart's drumming than that. He was at his peak for longer too.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 14:54 (one year ago) Permalink

oy vey. Can there be a Genesis Vs Rush poll so we can go back to matters at hand? lol

Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 14 July 2017 15:17 (one year ago) Permalink

xpost You are totally wrong about Peart. His parts are totally precise, totally arranged, totally deliberate and totally not spontaneous. And totally awesome. That's their brilliance! Even his solos are totally composed! Not a dig on him, just a very different style that does not demand groove or swing or whatever. Anyway, let's go to the tape:

Neil Peart does Buddy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9333XiR4U

Phil Collins big band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT5UslpgPUA

I mean, neither is playing the Village Vanguard.

Peart did stay at his peak longer, I'll give you that. But he worked really hard at that, too - taking lessons, reassessing/changing his technique - and it played a big role in his retirement.

Don't get me wrong, they're both great! But Neil Peart is perfect for Rush and only for Rush. Collins is far more versatile.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 16:09 (one year ago) Permalink

I mean, Collins doing his best Jaki here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXDrTZMVINo

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 16:11 (one year ago) Permalink

Through-composing and arranging ones parts has nothing to do with ones ability to "swing" ...

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:17 (one year ago) Permalink

Sure. But it does discredit an occasional looseness and spontaneity as an attribute. Peart is like a machine, which is what I love about him. Not a time-keeping machine, just a total wind-up do his thing machine.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 16:25 (one year ago) Permalink

It's a different discussion, but I've often wondered about certain rarified virtuosos, if they're so into their thing that that's all they can do. Again, that's not a dig at Peart at all. But I was really impressed several months ago coming across some video of Mike Portnoy playing the Beatles. Not that I like Portnoy's playing - I hate Dream Theatre - but I was just impressed he could set aside ego and do his best Ringo. Could a guitarist as prima facia virtuoso as, say, Steve Vai, even play a sloppy version of "Wild Thing?" Without doing his weedle-weedle? I saw a clip of Adrian Belew once - he's another guitarist who just does his thing - and he was talking about influences, and it was a bit like pulling teeth. The interviewer finally got him to concede Hendrix, and then it took another round of coaxing to get Belew to even minimally demonstrate some Hendrix-like licks.

Anyway, Peart's, yeah, through-composed approach to drums is (or was) essentially unique. That's what makes him special. But it's also what makes it so hard for me to compare him to other drummers.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 16:28 (one year ago) Permalink

Josh has it right -- Peart is a technician; adept, yes, but still a craftsman.

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 16:34 (one year ago) Permalink

Sure. But it does discredit an occasional looseness and spontaneity as an attribute.

Rush were never about jamming/improvising and neither really were Genesis, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it and of course being musicians of their calibre I'm sure they could. Basically, your argument boils down to "Collins is a better drummer because he's done more session work", and I disagree.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:37 (one year ago) Permalink

Peart > Bruford > Palmer > Collins > White

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:41 (one year ago) Permalink

i might as well add to this clusterfuck by asserting that genesis vs. rush is not a great debate to me because i do not feel that Rush is prog qua prog anyway, they are a hard rock band with prog tendencies.

I can't articulate why but trust me I am absolutely right.

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 16:54 (one year ago) Permalink

..and sh@kedown has it right as well

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:01 (one year ago) Permalink

Yep, they were very much that from 1975-1977 ... but it highlights another strength Rush have over Genesis: they rocked more. Like I said earlier, no far-too-long meandering 12 string guitar detours.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:05 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush were never about jamming/improvising and neither really were Genesis

the majority of genesis songs were born out of collective jamming

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:07 (one year ago) Permalink

they talk about this all the time

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:07 (one year ago) Permalink

xxpost:

I mean, it's called progressive rock, so too right the rocking is important.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:09 (one year ago) Permalink

I see the bands as having different goals.

Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:12 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush also had a musical sense of humor that Genesis lacked.

I firmly come down on the Rush side of the debate. And I agree Rush isn't really a prog band. I just won't say Peart is a better drummer than Collins. The latter is (was) a virtuoso, but was so much more versatile. Peart is the best Rush drummer we will ever see, which is enough, but not everything. Each one of the most creative drummers ever, regardless.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:13 (one year ago) Permalink

Rush also had a musical sense of humor that Genesis lacked.

Which is also to say, Rush may or may not be prog, but they most certainly were never art-rock.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:15 (one year ago) Permalink

xxxpost:

It doesn't matter how the songs were born - I'm perfectly sure several Rush songs were written and arranged that way and I know for a fact that the majority of Genesis songs weren't born out of collective jamming - maybe after Duke, certainly not before. Genesis' finished songs were mostly as set in stone as Rush's were.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:17 (one year ago) Permalink

I'd argue that Rush in the '80s were art rock.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:20 (one year ago) Permalink

the new Gier

bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:26 (one year ago) Permalink

I know for a fact that the majority of Genesis songs weren't born out of collective jamming

the lamb was born out of jamming! they talk about it in the freakin' doc!

i mean improvisation is just fast composition blah blah blah

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:28 (one year ago) Permalink

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway =/= "the majority of Genesis songs"

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:39 (one year ago) Permalink

phil also made the v labored point in the lamb reissue doc that the lamb and "hold on my heart" were the product of people playing in a room together and that that's the thing tying the whole genesis discography together but ok pls enjoy yourself turrican

ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:44 (one year ago) Permalink

LOL @ "the new Geir" ... Wasn't Gabriel-era Genesis Geir's favourite band? Doubt he would have stood for them being compared unfavourably to Rush. He woulda been wrong, but no surprises there.

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:45 (one year ago) Permalink

Wow, Genesis played in a room together, fucking hell...

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:46 (one year ago) Permalink

Anyway, I'm gonna give A Trick of the Tail another spin, I'm in the mood to listen to the not-at-all-arranged-or-composed-and-totally-improvised likes of 'Dance on a Volcano' and 'Los Endos', not to mention 'Mad Man Moon' and the title track, which I hear Banks improvised from beginning to end and then brought to the band...

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:53 (one year ago) Permalink

For what it's worth, Gabriel-era Genesis had mystique. Rush never did. Not a criticism, and Genesis never rocked as hard.

More importantly, who wore the better '80s hair? Was it Phil's never ending mullet or Geddy's raccoon hat?

dinnerboat, Friday, 14 July 2017 18:06 (one year ago) Permalink

Josh has it right -- Peart is a technician; adept, yes, but still a craftsman.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "technician" and "craftsman", this is not at all what I get from Josh's posts. If anything, he seems to be arguing that Collins is superior as a technician while Peart is so idiosyncratic that he only really works with Rush.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 14 July 2017 18:11 (one year ago) Permalink


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