genesis: duke

Heathaze is great, as is the whole Duke's Travels/End - but it's got to be Duchess for me. Just that transition from trippy new age drum machine reverie (sounds like some tranquil Amazonian paradise, teeming with insect life) into crashing, colossal and psychedelic anthemisms will never not thrill me. I wish it went on for hours and hours.

"I Cannot Believe it's True" is a monster of a tune, best use of the EWF horns ever. Ditto for "It Don't Matter to Me". Funky Phil rules.

Also this. The drums on IDMTM - shuffling, shifting, tumbling over each other without ever not being in the pocket, are mind-blowing.

It's an unpopular opinion, but I too prefer ATTW3. They sound far more of a unit on Duke, but the previous album to me is as underrated as it comes. Let the album gets very little love, least of all from the band

*yet

I'm happy to play the Geir role here. I like prog Genesis, not pop Genesis. Duke has plenty of fine moments, but it signalled the beginning of the end for me and I have no use for anything that came after. ATTWT is great because it merges pop concision with a prog sensibility.

pvmic

The drumming throughout Duke is pretty spectacular, particularly on the last couple of tracks.

There's a really cool drum effect in "I Don't Care Anymore" (one of my fave Phil vocal tracks). It starts out big and roomy - his Bonham sound - and then they gradually shift from the room mics to the close mics and the sound gets super tight, controlled and compressed. It's really neat.

I guess when it boils down to it - I rate Collins highly as a drummer, and as a singer I think he's got a great voice. As a songwriter though, I find him frustratingly inconsistent and I suspect a lot of the material I've enjoyed on Genesis records has come from either Banks or Rutherford.

I suspect Mike Rutherford is the secret weapon here. An at-times canny bassist & arranger, passable guitarist in the Andy Summers mold, and pretty crafty with the pop hooks. Even the big Mechanics hits, Patrick Bateman aside, have staying power.

He's a pretty boring guitarist. And while after a while the band credits all the songwriting collectively, which makes it hard to tell who does what, don't underestimate the amount of cheesy music and lyrics that have come from Banks and Rutherford. Phil gets way too much blame on that front, whether you like the cheesy stuff or not.

Was it Soto that observed Banks' uncanny ability to always pick the worst preset synth sound for every song?

I have no doubt that Banks and Rutherford have also been involved in creating some awful music, but given how much I prefer the '80s Genesis records to Phil Collins' solo stuff, I could probably put a safe bet on my favourite Genesis material either being written by Banks or Rutherford, or they were the starting point of the composition.

As a guitarist, Rutherford mostly gets out of the way, in contrast, say, to the hammy Daryl Stuermer. I'm not being critical of Phil, and I'm sure there's cheese sprayed from all directions, I just suspect that Mike's role in the band's pop turn is key. Tony's solo material, at least what I've heard of it, is tuneless and plodding, much as I love his big operatic chords and proggy arpeggios in Genesis. I guess I've come around to Mike as the band's invisible hand.

Banks was certainly their most gifted composer. Wind & Wuthering, my pick for best Genesis album ever, was mostly written by him. And his first solo album A Curious Feeling is a gem.

banks is also def mvp on the lamb imo

I tweeted this to chaki
But I often think of breaking up Yes and Genesis, and reforming: Gabriel, Hackett, Howe, Squire, Collins, and Banks

Genesyes

Another thing I like about Duke is that it's one of those records where you can tell the band knew what they were going for, and what kind of record they were trying to make. Therefore, you've still got the prog, but the new wave elements are brought into the sound in a very natural way, with some passionate vocal performances and great rhythm section work. There's plenty of hooks, but it isn't all-out pop. It reminds me of Rush's early '80s work in that sense.

And while after a while the band credits all the songwriting collectively, which makes it hard to tell who does what, don't underestimate the amount of cheesy music and lyrics that have come from Banks and Rutherford.

when I learned that Rutherford wrote the awful lyrics to "Land of Confusion," I wept with gratitude, thinking Collins had been exonerated.

Again - Invisible Touch - the band knew what they were going for and hit the mark.

Compare this with the noticeably more confused and patchy Abacab and Genesis - which, although they have their highlights, are essentially both the sound of three rich, successful men dicking about. Some of it works, some of it doesn't.

ehhh i think both abacab and the s/t are considerably better and hit their respective marks better than invisible touch, much as touch kinda represents the total solidification of the style they'd been heading toward since duke

when I learned that Rutherford wrote the awful lyrics to "Land of Confusion," I wept with gratitude, thinking Collins had been exonerated.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, July 4, 2017 3:51 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wouldn't have bothered weeping for the guy that wrote 'Another Day In Paradise' before fucking off to Switzerland, myself.

every song on abacab is great, the s/t is only marred by illegal alien

though i guess the worst song on invisible touch ("anything she does") isn't as bad as "illegal alien"

God, "Duchess" IS amazing. I voted too soon.

i guess the mark for abacab would be "hella progged out new wave record" and the mark for the s/t would be "pop record with slippery prog edges" and the mark for invisible touch would be "geometrically precise pop record but also featuring 'domino'"

three rich, successful men dicking about.

but that's Genesis since 1977! it's description, not criticism. Banks is too uptight and Rutherford and Collins too practical in the what-is-this-bullshit sense for me to ever take their attempts at Gabriel-esque tales of chivalric doom seriously.

'Illegal Alien' is indeed terrible, indefensible shit, but then again so is 'Who Dunnit?' ...

Personally, I don't think Invisible Touch has a bad track on it, and I definitely think that song-for-song it crushes Abacab. I'm not going to be making any Batemanesque comments about it being their undisputed masterpiece, but it's one of their strongest records, IMO.

The eponymous album sounds more like a would-be Collins solo record than Invisible Touch does.

"who dunnit" is fun as hell and there's nothing on invisible touch that even approaches "abacab" the song but let's agree to disagree

The eponymous album sounds more like a would-be Collins solo record than Invisible Touch does.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, July 4, 2017 9:05 AM (seven seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

between "home by the sea" and "silver rainbow" i really disagree

you could say that about "mama" though

On Duke and Invisible Touch were written by three rich, successful men, but I get no sense of dicking about and fumbling for a direction on those records - they knew what they were doing.

*-On

I wouldn't have bothered weeping for the guy that wrote 'Another Day In Paradise' before fucking off to Switzerland, myself.

Phil defends himself pretty forcefully from this in his book. I think he got shit for being a tax avoider or something, but that had nothing to do with it. The woman he married (and recently remarried, iirc) was Swiss, and her whole family, including aging parents, was in Switzerland, so he was basically, why wouldn't I move to Switzerland?

oh, think twice

"who dunnit" is fun as hell and there's nothing on invisible touch that even approaches "abacab" the song but let's agree to disagree

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Tuesday, July 4, 2017 4:05 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's fun in the sense that you get the impression that Genesis were deliberately trolling their fanbase, but beyond that it really is a stupidly annoying bit of fluff.

I like 'Abacab' (the song) - particularly the full-length album cut - but I'd take any song on Invisible Touch over it, particularly side one. Or any song from Duke!

Phil, can you help me?

Yeah, he married a Swiss woman and everything, but c'mon, the guy knew what he was doing.

xxxxpost - agreed Turrican, though (imo) no band ever did a better job of evolving through the years while maintaining the essential thing about their band than Rush, but I think this and Abacab do a good job of it too

re: three rich successful men dicking about

I think that's sort of the charm of a lot of stuff from 78-83ish, there was a certain grand imperial era of rock that allowed tremendously talented people to sort of muck around in sometimes very interesting ways. which I understand at the time was probably stifling but as they say we won't see their like again, or albums like Duke. so few artists even get to have careers now let alone float lazily through the decades like a luxury yacht picking up and trailing the detritus of various musical styles of the moment as they pass by

Phil defends himself pretty forcefully from this in his book. I think he got shit for being a tax avoider or something, but that had nothing to do with it. The woman he married (and recently remarried, iirc) was Swiss, and her whole family, including aging parents, was in Switzerland, so he was basically, why wouldn't I move to Switzerland?

At the time there was a lot of talk about Phil giving an interview before the 1997 election (or maybe it was 1992) that if Labour got elected and raised taxes he would leave the country. He's since denied saying those things, and I've never seen anyone find the original source material for those quotes, but I think that's why he got accused of tax avoidance (again, it could be and probably is bullshit, but it was in the air at the time he left).

Collins has admitted speaking to The Sun about politics and claims to uave regretted it since. It was in 1992, I think.

"i think both abacab and the s/t are considerably better and hit their respective marks better than invisible touch"

of course! invisible touch is 1/2 dire. abacab is all class and s/t only has illegal alien against it.

as they say we won't see their like again, or albums like Duke. so few artists even get to have careers now let alone float lazily through the decades like a luxury yacht picking up and trailing the detritus of various musical styles of the moment as they pass by

― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, July 4, 2017 4:28 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I understand what you mean - one of the fun things about getting into a band that has several albums over multiple decades is hearing how a band changes in its approach to developing material or hearing the changes in production styles.

akm it's like you're my brain talking back to me

I'm not even going to ask which half of Invisible Touch is meant to be dire, because the idea of the record being 50% dire is just wtf.

Has Genesis not been ballot polled yet? Seems like there's a fair bit of discussion on them in multiple threads lately.

would genesis + solo records be too much

Yeah, I think it would be. The Genesis discography itself is huge enough without having to think about Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel, Tony Banks, Steve Hackett, Mike & The Mechanics and everything else the guys have been involved in...

Halfway thru the "old medley" and loving it of course

Argh and then Phil drops some lines from Illegal Alien in I Know What I Like, like a turd slipping into the gravy

eeets noh fahn