King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

Love the harmonies on the first minute or so of "sailor's tale"

Fripp's side of his dispute with Belew: https://www.dgmlive.com/diaries/Robert%20Fripp/RF_diary_2017_August_22

fripp is such a fasincatingly terrible writer

Adrian’s concern prompted a telephone conversation between Adrian, Martha Belew, Adrian’s de facto manager, in Mount Juliet and David Singleton, King Crimson manager / minister, in KC’s Denver Hotel-Quite-Acceptable on June 23rd. 2017 (nominally a day off).

Passive aggressive much?

Anyway, Fripp is a dick but he has a point. How come KC can't play stuff that Belew worked on, but Belew can play KC stuff that Fripp co-wrote? Regardless, sounds like Belew quitting was more acrimonious than it was initially made out to be, which is clearly coloring everything that has come after.

seems like, whether bob has the moral and legal right to play that music, Bob and Ade agreed that he wouldn't. That should be the end of it, and Bob doesn't want to say why he didn't honor it.

my friend interviewed adrian and Stewart C. the other day re: the thus far not great sounding new band (I damn sure am going to go see Adrian and Stewart play on the same stage), and Stewart did not let Ade get a word in edgewise, so they didn't discuss the matter with Bob.

I saw KC like 10 times btwn 1995-2003, and am excited to see 'em again in Nov for the first time since then, even if I think Jakko is pretty suck-ass and, like JiC said awhile ago, is like "OMG OMG I'm in my favorite band" and is tricking Bob into playing shitty Lizard and Islands material (but not "a Sailor's Tale"?).

It's hard to tell who to believe, especially now that we know the split was somewhat acrimonious. Sounds almost like Belew made demands and, when he didn't get them, he quit, so Fripp figured (disingenuously?) any verbal agreement was null?

The telephone conversation between Adrian and myself (September 9th. 2013), which ended with Adrian believing us to have an agreement, was more monologue than dialogue: dudgeon was high, grapes were sour. Adrian made an opening statement, followed by three demands, and a final declaration (that Adrian was not prepared to be The Eighth Man, and was quitting the band).

which is it: ade left cuz he didn't want to be the eighth man (by which this must mean that he did not want to be deemphasized?) or bob said "you're not right for this rendition of KC."

initially the latter seemed accurate, but I think Fripp was being cagey. Adrian was not a good match for the band, because he did not want to be the 8th man.

it really seems weird that at this stage, with this many players, Fripp is suddenly claiming to be splitting everything equally.

??? When has he not?

has he always claimed that?

"ade left cuz he didn't want to be the eighth man (by which this must mean that he did not want to be deemphasized?) "

it's money; adrian wanted everyone but him and fripp to be paid as sidemen. fripp also says in there that he demanded this in 82, and again several years ago. I'm surprised that Levin and Mastoletto play with him on the side (they do the Crimson Project thing once or twice a year) given all of that.

It's always money. But then, this I imagine is KCs longest, most lucrative tour in forever, so more money.

another thing: I don't think this tour would be doing as well as it is with adrian. people have had 20/30 years of adrian KC, this is different and providing something people have really wanted to hear for a long time.

Belew coming across as a sourpuss here

https://youtu.be/eEJfIRkaZBg?t=1034

I'm a fan of all King Crimson line-ups and have an unusual favourite in Islands - which is one of my all-time favourite albums-, Lizard comes second for me.
So I'm really happy to see Fripp revisiting those songs. I've seen the current KC incarnation live a couple of years ago and loved it, obviously especially Sailor's Tale and The Letters.
Looking at recent setlist I see that they now also started playing the title track (also Lizard's title track and Cirkus). I really want to see them again now!

It's a shame that things are weird with Adrian now, though. He's done amazing work in the band and has been a key player for a long time. But at least he does admit still having some love for Fripp in that interview.

"Singer/guitarist who has failed to deliver upon the tremendous promise of a past project starts making crazy demands on present and future plans for that past project" is a dynamic I am way familiar with and a tale as old as time, and passive-aggressive or not, I am leaning toward Fripp's side here.

(The above was a secret message to old school emo fans who know.)

Belew coming across as a sourpuss here

https://youtu.be/eEJfIRkaZBg?t=1034

so which is it, was Belew just unceremoniously sacked, or was he unwilling to be the 8th man on stage? because I've heard it both ways.

Fripp is kinda oafish about this as always but whatever, it *is* his band and besides, kinda lame of Adrian to insist that they don't play his stuff onstage, when his set consists of a bunch of 80's KC material. I mean who cares.

Sounds like both. Belew and Fripp had a conversation, Fripp asked Belew if he wanted to be involved, Belew said something like yeah, but not as a sideman, since I wrote a lot of our stuff, so if I have to be a sideman I'd just as soon not do it and please don't play those songs. No way to know (though at this rate we might find out), but it sounds like in Belew's mind (and there is no way to know the tone of the conversation) that he explained himself. And then basically Fripp called his bluff and said, OK, Adrian and Fripp are not working together in this incarnation. To which Belew no doubt thought, fine, be that way, so I guess that means he's not playing my stuff. Which KC didn't - the first couple of legs. But now that stuff is sneaking in, and Below probably feels doubly betrayed. Like, Fripp can do whatever he wants, but it does sound like he maybe broke a friendly agreement, which makes things less friendly. Which is sort of ironic, since Fripp has been a squeaky wheel about contracts and rights and stuff like that for decades.

after seeing them on the first Elements tour, I thought Neurotica would be well suited to the way they were doing the songs, so I was glad to hear it. I haven't heard the new take on Indiscipline, but it strikes me as a weird choice. I guess if we hear Mel Collins tooting out 'babble, burble, brouhaha' then it's really a middle finger to Ade.

"Fripp asked Belew if he wanted to be involved"

actually, no, Fripp told him this KC wasn't for him, but he could remain as the '8th man' ie: in waiting for another iteration to come along, as Tony did at some point.

Belew coming across as a sourpuss here
https://youtu.be/eEJfIRkaZBg?t=1034

It's a shame that things are weird with Adrian now, though. He's done amazing work in the band and has been a key player for a long time. But at least he does admit still having some love for Fripp in that interview.

passive-aggressive or not, I am leaning toward Fripp's side here.

I generally agree w all of this and won't repeat what others have said here. It's a bummer that these two are having these problems so publicly. Perhaps inevitable given that it sounds like Belew and Fripp have had some of these issues going on 30 years. But for instance, Fripp actually crashes in the basement of Belew's house/studio when they are working together, recording or preparing for a tour. They are very close, which I think made it particularly hard on Belew to be told he wouldn't be a featured member of the current lineup.

I will say: you do almost get the sense, however, that Belew doesn't quite understand (or perhaps Fripp didn't really tell him) why he wouldn't have been right for singing songs from Lizard, etc. It's almost like Belew was like, "Ok, if I'm not right to sing *your* songs, you won't sing any of *mine.*" And, of course, that doesn't quite add up, as Fripp was present for the creation of all these songs -- and Belew wasn't (IIRC, Fripp didn't have a co-write on "ItCock").

At any rate, I have been going through a huge ProjeKcts and 'Aughts-era KC phase of late and am really looking forward to the fall tour. But you hope they work something out. Or at least, as Singleton suggested, they stop negotiating all this via social media.

I can't believe 2 old guys would behave this way

Yeah, but they're *our* old guys.

remember when Fripp said THRAK was an album about “mature men who still get erections”? Maybe they're just a bit testy

Fripp just posted this on FB:

Have just toasted Brother Ade at a distance with a Slinky Toes' Monster Margarita. There are no current plans for Adrian to come out with the current formation; but in Crimson's strange history there is a tendency for things to come around. So, Adrian has rejoined the larger family - hooray! - and doors to the future are open. So, no plans, but who knows what the future holds?

Right now, I'm looking forward to Gizmodrome and getting a few more guitar lessons...

Someone else has suggested that Belew may well be on board for 50th anniversary tour dates in 2019. As a confirmed Belew skeptic, I'm glad I saw the show I saw.

They'd have enough members for 2 crims to do 2 shows simultaneously side by side

could go the Yes route - Fripp, Ade, and Pat (FAP) as Crim-classic, then a bunch of satellite members as King Crimson official

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10150883819654995&id=6696764994

they need another horn player now

Not gonna lie: that post (and what Ade says amidst the comments) makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. These two dorks are just two goddamned good at what they do together to be all resentful of each other. 🤗

Man, DGM just dropped this today:

Sailors’ Tale (1970 - 1972)

21 CDs of studio & live material from 1970/2, 4 BD discs of studio/live material (audio), 2 DVDs of live material (audio),
12” box with booklet & memorabilia, bonus downloadable concert

The complete 1970-72 King Crimson boxed set: 21CDS/4Blu-Rays/2DVD – all audio.
3CDs feature Steven Wilson & Robert Fripp stereo mixes of In The Wake Of Poseidon (1970), Lizard (1970) & Islands (1971) + additional tracks.
6CDs feature the Islands line-ups early concerts from Germany (new to CD) & the UK (1971).
9CDs feature live recordings (several new to CD and/or previously unreleased in any format) from the 1972 US tour, including a new stereo mix of Summit Studios & an expanded Earthbound.
3CDs feature auditions for the Islands band & two further, as yet, unidentified concerts from 1972 (all previously unreleased)
3 Blu-Ray discs contain the main studio albums in 5.1 Surround Sound & recent stereo editions mixed by Steven Wilson & Robert Fripp + 30th anniversary masters of the original stereo albums mixes (all in 24/96 hi-res), plus extensive additional material with each disc also featuring a complete alternate album + a further selection of additional, related studio/live material in hi-res.
Lizard Blu-Ray: also contains the audition material from CDs19/20

Islands Blu-Ray: also contains the following concerts in stereo Zoom Club (4 shows), Marquee Club, Plymouth, Glasgow, Detroit all from 1971.
Earthbound Tour: Blu-Ray features an expanded version of the original album, Summit Studios gig in Stereo & Quadraphonic (newly mixed), the Schizoid Men sequence from the Ladies of the Road album, 2 newly discovered concerts in hi-res stereo & every existing soundboard concert recording from the 1972 US tour: Wilmington, NYC (2 shows), Chicago (2 tracks only), Detroit, Jacksonville, Orlando, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Peoria, Indianapolis & Denver (2 shows).
2 DVDs feature the expanded Earthbound, Summit Studios, Schizoid Men, New York 1972 & the recently discovered live concerts.
12” box with booklet, memorabilia, a further downloadable concert, new sleeve-notes by Sid Smith, Jakko Jakszyk & David Singleton

https://www.dgmlive.com/news/27%20Disc%20Boxed%20Set%20Pre-order

jeez

I'd hit it.

Maybe.

Which is to say, I have an unnatural appreciation for this era if the band – I have a number of really fond memories digging thru these records, their opulent artwork, gatefolds and Sinfield lyrics. To that point, I would hope that Sinfield's lyrics get their due in this box – an essay or something that establishes and examines how important his vision was to this era.

seems like Sinfield is embarrassed by his youthful pixie-isms…

nah, he may have been pixie-ish personally, but his words were dystopic, if florid…

3CDs feature auditions for the Islands band...

I know Elton John and Bryan Ferry auditioned for Poseidon, anyone know anything about this?

I saw them in the summer and the guy beside me was annoyed that there were only three drummers, not four like he'd expected. I can imagine him saying 'Only 21 CDs?!' to the box above.

Only Elton auditioned for Poseidon AFAIK but they both auditioned for Islands. I just love the idea of Fripp holding onto these audition tapes for 40 years and deciding that now is the right time to release them.

That timeline wouldn't make sense, both were established in their careers by the time Islands was recorded.

Wiki: In early 1970 Ferry had auditioned as lead singer for King Crimson, who were seeking a replacement for Greg Lake. Although Robert Fripp and Pete Sinfield decided that Ferry's voice was unsuitable for King Crimson's material, they were impressed with his talent and helped the fledgling Roxy Music to obtain a contract with E.G. Records.

Wiki also says:

After a search for new musicians, Fripp and Sinfield secured a returning Collins and Ian Wallace on drums. Auditions for a singer included those from Bryan Ferry, Elton John, and John Gaydon, the band's manager. The position went to Raymond "Boz" Burrell.

need to check Sid Smith's book but I don't have my copy to hand at the moment. I seem to recall Fripp saying something about it in the liner notes for A Young Person's Guide to King Crimson as well.

Wow that's crazy, Elton had already recorded four albums, including Tumbleweed Connection, by spring of '70. Sorry, just trying to sort out the chronology.

Three albums but point taken. I had always assumed Elton's audition was before the self-titled record was recorded – but wiki does confirm that "Your Song" didn't chart until October '70 so maybe the underlying idea that he wasn't yet a success when he tried out holds.

it'll be amazing if ferry and john auditions are on this box. I have downloads of all the other mega box sets and I have to admit I don't dip into them all that often.

I don't have the Road to Red set but he Larks Tongues set is really good. As much as I like Starless box, there's a ton of improvs on the LTIA one that don't sound like anything else that band ever did. Once Muir left, they settled into a thing. An absolutely unique and amazing thing to be sure but a thing nonetheless.

I love the recordings of the Muir band. Most of them sound like shit, but where the hell else are you going to hear stuff like a Wetton-Cross violin duet?