brexit negging when yr mandate is is trash: or further chronicles of a garbage-fire

I see all the Lib Dems voted for Ummuna's pathetic amendment - maybe he can join them, become their Macron and I can watch them fail again at the ballot box?

it is somewhat disheartening to see the main two opposition parties - labour and snp - basically say "on you go" to May wrt Brexit.

though not sure anyone, even the absolute boy, has the political capital to stand up to Brexit

It was not a manifesto commitment to "stand up to Brexit"

even the absolute boy, has the political capital to stand up to Brexit

he can't.
he is all for it.

It was not a manifesto commitment to "stand up to Brexit"

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, June 29, 2017 12:01 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no brexit is a settled issue as per the manifesto, I'm quite aware.

but the majority of labour voters are against it

Umunna expecting to stay in SM and CU without FoM is a good rib-tickler admittedly

Did you watch the General election? Many people who voted UKIP went back to Labour. Its part of the reason JC has more political capital rn.

I am fully aware many Labour supporters don't want Brexit. Unfortunately its a coalition of groups that have voted Labour. The fudge must go on.

did many kippers go back to Labour? I honestly haven't read anything to that effect.

From what I saw the UKIP vote collapsed with a split vote going Tory:Labour for a lot of the time.

given the current rules of the game Brexit is the hill you don't want to die on

we'll all get to die on that particular hill soon enough

Labour's official amendment is a DD quote about leaving EU with "exact same benefits" of SM and customs union. Given you don't get those without Brexit, it sounds like a demand for cake and eat it — which is exactly what the Tories promised.

Seems like a good way to keep hanging this around Tory necks and avoiding the "remoaners ignoring democracy" charge.

Watson on ch4 news earlier saying chukka's ammendment was unhelpful because they were seeking a "jobs first brexit" and used the phrase 3-4 times. If you can't beat 'em...

umunna's amendment was self indulgent gesture politics of the worst kind

Labour's manifesto on Brexit & amendment Labour MPs were whipped to support tonight.
There was no need for Umunna's amendment- well done JC pic.twitter.com/F1kF9Pp7Se

— Jeremy Corbyn for PM (@JeremyCorbyn4PM) June 29, 2017

Seems like a good way to keep hanging this around Tory necks and avoiding the "remoaners ignoring democracy" charge.

True, and Chuka's up to no particular good w/ his amendment but it's still very sad and the brexit is still going to be shit

I don't think we should lose sight of that and how much Corbyn is just rolling along being a Brexiteer - I mean yeah sure wants a soft left wing brexit not a hard right wing one but this is a bit like saying we're going to bring back capital punishment, but soft not hard. Deckchairs/titanic feeling

The Brexit vote is still so fake, so not actually democratic, so not going to provide what any of these stupid cunt leave voters actually want, you know? Why's he going along with it, he's meant to be the nice one. Etc. This post brought to you by a couple of tinnies.

Usual idiots taking the opportunity to say Corbyn really voted Leave blah blah blah, ffs.

my fave (from a Labour Right remoaner) is "the good election campaign proves he never properly tried to campaign for Leave" from a person who said he was toxic with the electorate and couldn't possibly connect with them.

Soft capital punishment...Deckchairs/Titanic.

We're all working hard tonight huh?

xp
I meant to say "campaign for Remain" there obv

This post brought to you by a couple of tinnies.

self help group : brexit related booze excess.

sign me up.

Did you watch the General election? Many people who voted UKIP went back to Labour. Its part of the reason JC has more political capital rn.
I am fully aware many Labour supporters don't want Brexit. Unfortunately its a coalition of groups that have voted Labour. The fudge must go on.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:07 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
did many kippers go back to Labour? I honestly haven't read anything to that effect.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:09 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
From what I saw the UKIP vote collapsed with a split vote going Tory:Labour for a lot of the time.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:13 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I saw some graphic the other day that suggested this wasn't the case, i.e. very UKIP voters switched to Labour. According to this thing, what actually happened was a lot of ex-UKIPers just didn't vote at all this time and a fair amount switched to Tory. Meanwhile Labour picked up from the Tories than they lost to them and also gained lots of Greens and (decisively) people who hadn't previously voted. The net effect looks like the UKIP vote splitting red and blue, but it seems to be more complex than that.

*very few

Gah! *picked up more

Yes, I don't think many Kippers voted Labour, Remainers did in droves though.

Yes, I don't think many Kippers voted Labour, Remainers did in droves though.

This is going to end well. Like our economy.

I saw some graphic the other day that suggested this wasn't the case, i.e. very UKIP voters switched to Labour. According to this thing, what actually happened was a lot of ex-UKIPers just didn't vote at all this time and a fair amount switched to Tory. Meanwhile Labour picked up from the Tories than they lost to them and also gained lots of Greens and (decisively) people who hadn't previously voted. The net effect looks like the UKIP vote splitting red and blue, but it seems to be more complex than that.

― Warren's Treat (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 29 June 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK, even if the above was the case what would've been the effect of playing the "stop Brexit party" card on those voters? Would they have voted Tory? I haven't seen any major shifts in public opinion since the Brexit vote and the trigger of Art 50. We are divided. And lets not forget "stop Brexit" was the Lib Dem strategy and it didn't work.

Chuka Umunna‏Verified account @ChukaUmunna Jun 28

Why Single Market 'membership' is better than 'access':
1. Helps end austerity
2. Promotes social justice
3. Strongest opposition to T/May

*watches Europe impose austerity on Southern Europe for years*

And ours was a political choice by the UK government. Austerity could be ended right this second.

"austerity" is such a lie anyway, the word pretends that this is intended to be a temporary, ameliorative measure instead of the long term goal of Conservative policy that it really is

The Tories try to peddle this temp deficit solution lie about austerity while giving a £140 bn bonus to the banking system and almost doubling national debt. The EU are even worse really, they talk about the timescale of the appalling austerity they are imposing on Greece in terms of decades. No wonder they have the highest suicide rate in Europe.

I mean what Chuka is saying isn't actually wrong per se - single market membership is going to be better than access but it's going to be virtually impossible to achieve without massive concessions on freedom-of-movement that (some of) the Labour right don't want.

There is the question of how much of Corbyn's programme would be achievable in the middle of the economic collapse that a hard Brexit/WTO-rules eventuality would provoke, but I'm not sure that anyone but the most batshit Tory government would go for that. The current one is too weak to do so and will have to make if anything have to make more concessions than they were planning.

Billy Bragg... OTM?

Cucka Umunna amirite guys

Lib Dem supporter Bragg is mostly right there but he still sounds more deeply bothered about the EU than about socialism

He's totally OTM. This bullshit has been signed, sealed and delivered by the Conservatives and on their heads be it. Corbyn isn't willing to go against a referendum vote because however gullible/stupid we might think Brexit voters were, the result was democratic. There are a number of investigations of dirty Leave money chugging along (one of which implicates the DUP, so park that info somewhere for future use).

What I find incredibly disheartening: softer lefties tossing around that YOUR A TORY meme after two blessed months of relative unity.

It's almost as if he suspects the end result of hard/soft Brexit will make life worse for poor and vulnerable people than remaining in the EU. xps

"the result was democratic. There are a number of investigations of dirty Leave money chugging along"

These two consecutive statements seem to have a tense relationship.

I hope Bragg is right. I have some faith that he is; somehow I trust his political judgement.

" hard/soft Brexit will make life worse for poor and vulnerable people than remaining in the EU"

tell that to people with terminal illnesses who have been put on ESA by PIP assessors. "Lol! things can actually get worse than this!"

I did mean to continue that thought: these shadowy Leave groups and their snide bungs to weird addresses were not known last June. Those Leave voters grown-up enough not to double down on their choice are peeling off according to some polls, because of corruption like this.

Stephen Bush gets it

One red herring is the Euroscepticism of Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. Corbyn is a Eurosceptic of long vintage, of course, but Theresa May has a history of voting to limit reproductive rights, and that didn't stop her opponents getting their way yesterday.

The truth is that – just as with the Article 50 vote last year – Corbyn's decision probably changed a handful of votes either way. Left to their own devices, Diane Abbott and Barry Gardiner, plus perhaps another 20 or so backbenchers, would have voted for the amendment.

But as it stands, a far bigger rebellion would have gone the other way. Whether through conviction that Britain does need to get its immigration under control (Caroline Flint, Stephen Kinnock), the belief that the referendum was a de facto one on border control so, like it or not, that must happen (Jonathan Reynolds, Emma Reynolds) or a belief that Labour must toughen its policy on immigration to win an election (Yvette Cooper, Tom Watson), there is, at present, a large majority within the PLP for a drastic breach with the European Union.

That doesn't mean that Britain's single market membership is doomed. That the 49 Labour MPs who voted on Umunna's amendment span the breadth of the party, from Kensington MP Emma Dent Coad on one end to Alison McGovern on the other, shows that Labour's single marketers have the potential, at least, to unify and convince much of the PLP.

conviction that Britain does need to get its immigration under control (Caroline Flint, Stephen Kinnock), the belief that the referendum was a de facto one on border control so, like it or not, that must happen (Jonathan Reynolds, Emma Reynolds) or a belief that Labour must toughen its policy on immigration to win an election (Yvette Cooper, Tom Watson)

so many legitimate concerns, so little xenophobia

"Lol! things can actually get worse than this!"

dude the EU has totally done a stand-up job on protecting us from the worst ravages of Austrian economics

The worst is not so long as we can say 'this is the worst', of course. But it's a tough message to get over to people for whom things are plenty shit already, as the referendum demonstrated.

tell that to people with terminal illnesses who have been put on ESA by PIP assessors. "Lol! things can actually get worse than this!"

explain to me how we repair our social care system when the economy has crashed post-Brexit. I know this thread is just a kneejerk backslap zingfest, but please explain it to me.

just print some fookin' money idk. The point I'm making is life couldn't get any worse for some people. My partner is going to a PIP appeal on monday herself, so i am not just being a zingy bastard. it was a heartfelt barb at remoaner type messaging. But ftr I did vote Remain and was against the ref.

And tbr, the cruelty of the current benefits regime is nothing to do with scarcity of resources

calzino, sorry if i sounded like a cunt and i'm enraged on your behalf for what your partner is going through. my dad had the same condition and i can't imagine what it would have been like to have had to deal with it in the current landscape.

the eu has many, many faults, but we are fuckedfuckedfucked outside of it. societies generally don't make decisions that benefit their most vulnerable when their economies collapse.