Fire at Grenfell Tower in London

Inflammable cladding obv. preferable.

Ilx is very lucky to have a fire safety expert on the thread tho.

Sprinklers are designed to contain fires not put them out, and they work better in contained areas. This fire looks to have spread primarily through the outside of the building and would have been too severe to be controlled by sprinklers when it came back into the building. The scandal is the cladding and there are also question marks over the effectiveness of the fire doors.

"This fire looks to have spread primarily through the outside of the building and would have been too severe to be controlled by sprinklers"

Nobody knows this for certain at this point, with all due respect.

Of course.

Oh, you just felt like doing a lawyer routine then.

Son Of Dorke

calz step back a second. Kozelek is just laying out some info it seems to me

sorry, but presenting shit opinions as facts is bs. But I am a bit angry atm and will step back for the good of the thread.

Thank you Tracer. Like calzino says it is impossible to be certain of anything at this stage. I'm not trying to present anything as fact, feel free to take me with a pinch of salt.

I'm not an expert by any means but I did work in this area for a couple of years. This is an extremely unusual fire.

Tell you what might have helped, a fucking fire alarm.

I heard a tenant on the radio this morning say that there was no central alarm, her own smoke alarm only went off when she opened her door to see what was happening

I have worked on shitloads of flat refurbs in the north and have never seen one without a fire alarm before. I think even some of the four storey maisonette ones had fire alarms.

Out of interest did you notice if there were alarms in the communal areas as well as individual flats?

the idea that a 24-storey building wouldn't have fire alarms is absolutely horrifying

This seems like the alarms were in the communal areas but not in the indiv flats.

Someone on TV said she left the flat after a friend phoned her to tell her the building was on fire. She did say she heard alarms while getting out.

From my experience a lot of buildings like this are covered by battery operated domestic smoke alarms in the flats and nothing outside them. I believe it's about encouraging people to stay in their flats (which is supposed to be safer than running into a fire in the communal areas). I've always found the lack of a proper alarm bizarre.

I can remember on quite a few jobs in Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield where there were smoke alarm sensors all wired in miic cables to the top in the communal areas. I always assumed there is an alarm panel in every big building. But admittedly I have been out of that game for half a decade now.

And all the flats in Bradford had hard-wired smoke, heat and C02 detectors on a dedicated circuit.

There's going to be a huge fallout from this. It wouldn't surprise me at all if fire safety regulation was changed as a result.

Better be some KingsX level changes here.

I see deregulating house building was item #1 on the "cut red tape" Brexit plan

i'd be shocked if the building complied with fire safety regulation as it is

Nbd flammable cladding affixed w/wood seems fine

ffs! Couldn't they just have give it a lick of paint if it was giving the rich folks nausea?

That is what they did to the dilapidated tower blocks in Hudds before the royal visit.

Not as if regs would make damn all difference if your level of enforcement over there parallels with ours, though we've had occupied apartment complexes vacated and shut down on foot of inspections in the past few years, which is....at least something (if not much comfort to the individual homeowners/renters)

shocked residents in my own building already discussing via email to fast-forward safety measures we've had tabled since a fire-safety inspection (the first ever) last year

we're collectively our own landlord, so literally no one here to look to or blame but us, but even so everything that costs money (as these measures will) always gets put off :(

Knock on wood but at least this is one area of public administration Trump can't really fuck up for us. Horrible news.

i was reading somewhere that the new cladding panels themselves should have been okay, but they might have had non-retardant insulation fitted behind them (residents had complained of coldness in the winter)

in retrospect using kerosene-soaked newspaper as the insulation may have been a mistake

sorry i shouldn't have posted that - sarcasm is my kneejerk response to fury

So many buildings in London have been reclad over the last five years or so that there could be dozens of places that are similarly vulnerable.

My mum lives in a tower block that's recently been reclad but it's definitely high spec insulated and fully rendered on to of the insulation. Also, in Scotland, all rented accommodation, whether privately rented or social housing, needs to have a hard wired smoke and co2 detector but backed up by battery in case the wiring fails. Also all communal areas and front doors to properties have fire doors. Those have been the regs for several years now. I cannot believe this tower was recently refurbished with seemingly flammable materials.

It's really upsetting, all of this.

Brexit of course partly motivated by a wish to avoid these stupid lifesaving measures

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2016/jan/15/tory-landlord-mps-housing-bill-private-rented

That is the problem when a load of scumbag landlords (in the PLP as well) can vote down housing bills in parliament.

It's important not to politicise this, so if we can all come together to hang this Ian-Gibson-drawn motherfucker, that would be good.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357

Ugh.

the level of failure on so many levels here is just heartbreaking and infuriating and appalling and, more than anything, eminently fucking avoidable

A former Tory housing minister warned MPs against beefing up fire safety regulations, because it could discourage house building, the Mirror reports.

It says that five years after the coroner’s report into the 2009 blaze in Camberwell called for developers refurbishing high-rise blocks to be encouraged to install sprinkler systems, Brandon Lewis told MPs:

"We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation ...

The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building—something we want to encourage— so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has."

That's their answer to everything, better to have more people in penury because legislating against it would create fewer shit jobs paying a pittance. Better to have more deathtraps than fewer properly constructed, safe houses.

2013: Boris Johnson tells Labour opponent to "Get stuffed" when questioned on Fire Service cuts. Thanks to @angelcakephotos pic.twitter.com/TAR0e2BX1E

— EL4C (@EL4JC) June 14, 2017

it's almost as if there was an opposition party pointing out the problems in real time

as ever, fuck boris johnson

Experts have repeatedly warned that the addition of cladding, which is regularly used to refresh old or ugly buildings, can help spread fire. It can work like a chimney, they have warned, bringing up air that allows it to spread across a building quickly.

_Landlord spent £10million to put cladding to make building look pretty (for surrounding rich) for 300k they could have sprinkler system._

"We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation .../

This *fucking cunt*. An industry has a responsibility to market lifesaving devices to developers? FUCK OFF.

mission v much not accomplished then xp

stet otm, this belief that the free hand of the market will somehow inevitably lead to safe, secure housebuilding instead of deathtrap slums is fucking delusional

stonking package on the 10 debunking the social housing “charter” but weirdly nothing about the current inquiry. couldn’t find a link to the video on the BBC News site.

very good and angering summary of the corporate and regulatory responsibility for grenfell by anoosh chakelian in the NS.

Lunchtime update from the Grenfell Tower Inquiry:

Cavity barrier manufacturer says installation of barriers on Grenfell was "some of the worst I have ever seen" pic.twitter.com/L39pnd07dR

— Peter Apps (@PeteApps) March 9, 2021

Chris Mort carried out an examination of the way his product had been installed after the fire in 2018. Says he believes there were areas where the products either weren't fitted at all or stuck on with sillicone instead of fixed with a bracket

unfuckingbelievable. You don't need to be a barriers expert to know that sticking important safety components with fucking silicone is rough as.

well of course hes going to say that, its his product.

I wouldn't expect lying at a public inquiry is beyond the realms of possibility but if the barriers really were stuck on with silicone rather than with the brackets, then he'd right calling it a cowboy installation.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVUn3zMVoAAEw9n?format=jpg&name=small

lives could have been saved -- but at what cost?

see also, from today

This is such a powerful first-hand account from ⁦@MichaelSchuman⁩. “The state may have prevented COVID deaths better than many liberal democracies. But that success has come at great cost—to human dignity and to the human spirit.” https://t.co/YUZVxydtLC

— Josh Lipsky (@joshualipsky) June 14, 2022

drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not,

— wint (@dril) May 9, 2014

strong essay by peter apps on the grenfell enquiry so far:

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/home/the-grenfell-tower-inquiry-has-painted-a-vivid-picture-of-the-world-we-must-leave-behind-76600

Excellent, especially the last few remarks.

This also seems relevant.

How did one of the world’s wealthiest economies end up with housing so unfit for extreme weather? I wrote about how Edwardian moralising, cheap coal and Thatcher's bonfire of housings standards has left British homes unprepared to weather climate change. https://t.co/2eDJLlHb5R

— Phineas Harper (@PhinHarper) July 20, 2022

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/multiple-firefighters-who-saved-lives-28941465

"Up to a dozen firefighters who saved lives at the Grenfell Tower have been diagnosed with cancers; the majority of which are understood to be digestive cancers and leukaemia, for which there is no cure"

:-(

this is doubly grim bcz attached to this particular event but i assume the issue is baked in to all modern fire-fighting