Rolling Music Theory Thread

More chord questions!

This guy:
http://i.imgur.com/UnpVaGs.jpg

That is: low E open, A at seven, D at five, G open, B at seven, and high e open.

Does this even have a name? It must, right?

Emin11

Oh wait I misinterpreted what you said never mind

So EEGGF#E?

Em sus2

Yeah, although I think it is better to call it Em add 2

Interesting.

I actually only have one song where I play that chord. It gets into some hazy territory for me, as I actually don't keep any of my guitars in standard tuning. Because I prefer such heavy gauge flatwounds, I tune down to D and capo from there. The song where I play that chord is in D# (capo at the first fret), making the notes D#D#F#F#FD#.

The Mamas and the Papas - "No Salt on Her Tail"

I guess you'd call it a bridge at 0:56. Anyway, an eight-bar section that starts on the subdominant. First four bars are:

1. IV
2. ii
3. IV
4. vi - IV

Fifth bar starts on a iii chord, but does it stay on it? Or does it go to a I chord for the third and fourth beats? The musicians seem to be playing different things.

What happens at the end of the chorus in "Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves?" Just a hesitation? One extra beat somewhere?

Good question

re: "No Salt On Her Tail," it moves from iii on the first half of the measure to vi on the second half of the measure.

Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves -- I hear it as a bar of 5/8 (where the break and "but every night..." is) followed by a bar of 4/4 (with the little mallet lick and "and lay their money down"). There are some 3/4 bars in the verses too.

crüt, I think the melody suggests that it should go to D minor there, but it doesn't sound to me that the acoustic guitar does that.

I hear it as a bar of 5/8 (where the break and "but every night..." is) followed by a bar of 4/4

I think it happens right there too but I think it's 5/4. Weird thing is, it's an agogic accent on beat four in that bar of five. And then maybe what sounds like an agogic accent two beats later unless you're clued in to the fact that it's actually a downbeat.

Hate it when that happens

5/4 if you're counting double-time, sure. I don't know what agogic means but I know what you're saying. It definitely knocks you off balance if you don't know it's coming.

A friend who is a Radiohead superfan just sent me this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_IHotHxIl8&feature=youtu.be

For the studio version, they probably thought it was a pretty funny joke to have everything hit on the "uh" (as in 1-e-and-uh) but then take out all the drums so there's no context anyway.

Thought you guys might get a kick out of trying to suss out where the verses and whatever other parts of the song there are start and end on this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNa9-INcLec

There's a minor five chord in Don't Go Back to Rockville!

It really strikes me as one of the most characteristically country things about that song, but no idea what the precedent for that might be (or if there is one).

Oh, interesting. I always used to think that was the moment it stopped sounding like 'just' a country song.

I love that part, though!

I'm glad you brought it up. It was fun to work it out this morning.

I and my colleague were just accepted to present an analysis of "Blues for Allah" at the Society for Music Theory conference in November.

Cool...maybe you can share it here too

the whole record?

Just the epic title track but we might consider some different versions of it.

I'll be happy to share it here afterwards btw.

Nice!

This is the proposal we submitted, that outlines what we're going to do, with some diagrams: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qb88EO6jgXan_urdNYEebfE2gZemyrgL/view?usp=sharing

can anyone name examples of songs in the Lydian mode that don't resolve to (or hint at resolving to) Ionian/Aeolian/Mixolydian?

― macklin' rosie (crüt), Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:31 PM (three years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTq6Tofmo7E

Oh cool. I love the Lydian mode.

My heard always hurts a little when I read classical terms I don’t know like 6/4 chords or Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord.

Sorry I don’t have any Lydian examples. Feel like I once read in some music history book that long ago it was the default major mode, more so than the Ionian, but it’s been awhile,

Or maybe that which we now call Ionian used to be called Lydian.

Or that it was Glareanus who introduced the Ionian mode, which had already existed as a Lydian with a natural 4.

My heard always hurts a little when I read classical terms I don’t know like 6/4 chords or Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord.

Are you looking for explanations of these?

Well, yeah

6/4 chord = a triad in second inversion (e.g. C/G). The numbers come from the intervals above the bass note. These chords have very specific functions (passing, arpeggio, neighbouring, cadential) in common practice music.

Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord: this one's a little trickier. These are dim7 chords but they are not functional dim7 chords (in the way that viio7 is). They are chromatic harmonies and essentially serve to embellish functional harmonies, especially I or V. The root of the functional harmony is a common tone with the dim7 chord while the other voices are one step away. For instance, D#dim7 could work to embellish a C major chord in the key of C: C is a common tone between the two chords (7th of D#dim7, root of C), D# and F# are chromatic pitches one semitone away from E and G, respectively, and A resolves by step to G. These are mainly found in Romantic music.

So yeah, the CTo7 chord usually precedes the chord it is 'embellishing'.

They are found most often in major keys.

For an easy guitar example with proper voice leading, play D#dim7 on strings 4 to 1 on frets 1-2-1-2. Resolve to C/E on the same strings, voiced 2-0-1-3

That was helpful, thanks

This came about because of:
https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=105686

Aw, I remember Steve from the emusictheory forum.

I found some other posts on another thread where a guy mentioned his Royal Conservatory textbooks and I thought it might be you.

Also came upon mention of the Neapolitan 6th, if you have time to elucidate that as well.

On the Delcamp board? I think I did post there once or twice at one point; not sure if I discussed RCM books there. They're used by virtually everyone in Canada who studies classical music tbf.

Neapolitan 6th = a major triad built on bII, in first inversion. Most commonly used in minor keys. Functions as a pre-dominant; a chromatic substitute for ii (or iio6), m/l.

e.g. Bb/D in the key of Am. As it is spelled D-F-Bb, you can see how close it is to both iv (Dm) and iio6 (Bdim/D).

Thanks. m/l?

Yeah, there was no reason to qualify that. It's a chromatic alteration of or substitute for the supertonic triad.

Here's a functional progression with good voice-leading: Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1) - Dm (0-2-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - Bb/D (0-3-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - E7 (2-1-3-0 on strings 4 to 1) - Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1). In Roman numerals, that's Am: i-iv-N6-V7-i. You can both how smoothly it follows iv and how well it resolves to V7: the lowered ^2 falls by the interval of a diminished third to the raised ^7.

Or maybe that which we now call Ionian used to be called Lydian.

― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, September 7, 2018 5:33 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is basically correct. in Ancient Greek music theory, the Lydian diatonic scale is more or less equivalent to today's Ionian mode.

https://www.amazon.com/Ptolemy-Harmonics-Translation-Commentary-Bibliotheca/dp/9004115919

I was fortunate to be able to check this out of my college library for an extended period of time. I wish it were cheaper; if I ever have $$$ I'll buy a copy. It's pretty fascinating stuff!