Explosion at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester May 2017 (Also London Bridge/Borough Market attack)

why i support an anti-war agenda. Western foreign policy for the last 10+ years has only fed into this. we need to stop bombing. we need to stop droning. we need to stop arming. violence begets violence. we always find a convenient scapegoat, someone else to blame and say is worse, never taking time to seriously consider the consequences for those not so geographically privileged (Atlantic and Pacific ocean we love you). the Iraq War and War on Terror are things that happened, are still happening, and have consequences down the line, and will for decades. the US left needs to step up in regards to the anti-war effort. we need to course correct and then some.

so true adam

adam otm, which is also why seeing this current administration is so disheartening, it is almost guaranteed the situation will only get worst down the next 20 years.

At a slightly faster rate than it would have under Clinton, tbf.

This is probably not the best place to discuss it, but it seems ISIS goal is ... isolationist? They want their own country/land/laws, and no outside intrusion. But is that really achievable in today's world? Would anyone be cool with a draconian authoritarian region? A bunch of North Koreas? And would ISIS even be satisfied achieving its amorphous goals and stopping there? It doesn't seem feasible, or morally tenable. It's a total conundrum, really. The west is to blame for plenty of the mess, but there is every indication it would be a mess without our meddling.

That said, given population, poverty, countless years of malicious or misbegotten policy etc., any course correction would take decades. Which might not be a realistic goal, either. Is there any indication that a religious cult bent on mass destruction and/or world domination can change direction? It took centuries for the Christians and Muslims to chill out the first time around.

I don't gather that ISIS is isolationist - my understanding is that they want a clash of civilizations as much as Steve Bannon (and that's a major part of the problem - 'leaving well enough alone' isn't an option any more)

oh good Morrissey's shown up.

was actually waiting for that

cheers and big love btw to those who said supportive things on this thread last night.

a sombre night in the centre of town by all accounts; but thousands out and about; busier even than normal for a warm sunny evening.
Simple Minds did a big 'thing' at their gig tonight; Jim Kerr said some nice things etc. i wasn't there but the footage is on Twitter. i've never been their biggest fan but i bet it was a good gig to be at considering.

a sombre night *tonight* i should say.

I'm pretty sure ISIS strategy is to make me hate everyone and their dumb opinion in my local pub then fuck yeah you win, can we stop now.

(and that's a major part of the problem - 'leaving well enough alone' isn't an option any more)

should say it's not an easy option anymore - even if we stop bombing and interfering and propping up the Saudis and other regional autocrats, ISIS/etc. are still going to be trying to attack Europeans and Americans, which makes it harder to sell non-intervention

as long as Iran, Saudis and EUA do not to step up and use their petrodollars to finance peace in one way or another, ISIS and something similar will happen.

never taking time to seriously consider the consequences for those not so geographically privileged

Seriously wtf does "geographically privileged" mean? Major lols

some territories are better than others. pretty much the only way to explain history most influential movements without being racist, afaic.

So, to say Afghanistan is a 'shithole', that makes one a racist?

Nah I think that's totally fine

ISIS/etc. are still going to be trying to attack Europeans and Americans, which makes it harder to sell non-intervention

The guy who carried this out is from Manchester. That's in Europe.

He didn't seem to like it that much though.

van smack your mouth is a shithole

Seriously wtf does "geographically privileged" mean? Major lols

He means US is privileged by having ocean between it and the rest of the world? So can intervene but locals in the area will suffer more from reprisals than US will

He didn't seem to like it that much though.

No doubt, but this idea that there's thing out there, that we must destroy, separate from us, somewhere over there in the Middle East, and it's called da-da-da-da-da-da-DAHHHH ISIS is simple-minded.

Go over to Syria, get rid of these ISIS dudes, job done.

There isn't a simple solution to this.

I think most recent american interventions, especially with drones but also with aiding saudi arabia's proxy wars and things like that, are immoral on its own terms but i don't think stopping that stuff would make isis and al qaeda disappear.

And like, there are people fighting these groups -- fighting for a decent society. What is our responsibility to them? To the Iraqi army retaking Mosul, to the Kurds? Especially now that American actions created the vaccuums that allowed Isis and others to thrive, can we just cut our losses now, at this point?

i believe extreme poverty and massive inequality in the middle east is the root cause. not unlike how the great depression was one of the major factors in developing fascism in europe.

van smack your mouth is a shithole

― the late great,

Personal attack, congrats.

No doubt, but this idea that there's thing out there, that we must destroy, separate from us, somewhere over there in the Middle East, and it's called da-da-da-da-da-da-DAHHHH ISIS is simple-minded.

Oh geez.. It's that time again, between 24 tot 48 hours after an attack, when everyone's an expert. Didn't think it'd become this basic and lame on ilx, but here we are. The trrrists won.

Come on guys

Some people cope with trying to find solutions, it is very irrational and not to be taken seriously.

van snack i personally attack your mom on the nightly

also go fuck yourself

racist classist piece of garbage

I'm so sick of this shit. I've been here for 16 years and watch this place gradually turn more more into a haven for assholes. Why do I have to come on this board after a long day at work and listen to people insult my career or insult the part of the world I'm from. And then you get all self-righteous and huffy and act like I'm the asshole for getting offended.

Seriously the worst fucking people have come to dominate this board.

lol keep crying late great

mah feels

Shut up van smack

lol who are you? fuck outta here.

saying "mah feels" on ilx, my god get back to the rest of the internet where you belong you basic pos

Get lost fucko

Threadban nau

vahid all us usual assholes are still here too. Fuck that guy

Rattled by the alerts of an "imminent attack" and raising the national threat level to Critical. The more I think about it the more my blood boils and I wish we could just fucking gather every ISIS leader, affiliate, associate into one spot in the desert and just turn them into a sheet of glass once and for all. They build NOTHING, they give the world NOTHING, and all they believe in is chaos, destruction, and death. FUCK YOU

If the Manchester attacker was Palestinian and the victims Israeli, the terrorist's family would receive a stipend from Mahmoud Abbas.

If my granny had wheels, she'd be an omnibus.

So many young, beautiful, innocent people living and enjoying their lives murdered by evil losers in life. I won't call them monsters, because they would like that term. They would think that's a great name. I will call them, from now on - losers, because that's what they are, they're losers. And we'll have more of them, but they're losers, just remember that. Our society can have no tolerance for this continuation of bloodshed. We cannot stand a moment longer for the slaughter of innocent people, and in today's attack, it was mostly innocent children. The terrorists and extremists and those who give them aid and comfort must be driven out from our society forever. This wicked ideology must be obliterated, and I mean completely obliterated. Innocent life must be protected. All innocent lives. Life must be protected. All civilized nations must join together to protect human life and the sacred right of our citizens to live in safety and in peace.

he's had two or three broken clock moments, this is one of them. other major one being the O'Reilly Super Bowl interview - "what? you think we're so innocent?"

This wicked ideology must be obliterated

you can obliterate people, or objects, but ideologies? it makes no rational sense. they are mental constructs. even if you eliminate all the people or objects that embody an ideology, those ideas cannot be stopped from arising again independently.

xp

22 people die at a concert, let's load up the boxcars and drive them out.

if yall can be middle east experts on ilx, i'm going to be a manchester expert: imagine what it's like to live in the uk as a second generation arab kid in 2017, hearing the drumbeat of racism, having your religion called an evil ideology, and a rightwing government pushing austerity programs, cutting your country off from the rest of the world, and your own government throwing your parents' homeland into chaos. venturing into trenchant social commentary here: the only "wicked ideology" is the one that governs the united kingdom, who profit from suffering in their own country and joined in the murder of millions and the destabilization of the entire world for their own gain.

how do you obliterate an ideology? who are you driving out? throw a couple imams in jail, deport them? round up some libyan kids that listen to al-baghdadi trap house?