The Grateful Dead May 1977 Poll

The one and only time I saw Dark Star orchestra they did the St. Paul '77 setlist. That was a good show.

I listened to New Haven in the car today and then when I got into the office (laptop & headphones instead of CD player) I listened to Baton Rouge 9/1/69, whose sound quality is complete garbage but whose set/performance is just a completely diff. world. not sure if the keys are Pig or Tom Constanten (likely the latter) but they're just so good and lively. the distance from '69 to '77 is just so so great

Blasphemy, I know, but these days I prefer even 90s Dead to 60s Dead. Pig bums me out and TC is a snore

not trying to harsh on my dead lovin online buds

and I am a mild fan, and have spent dozens of hours trying to get"there" - live dead, Europe 72, old renaissance fairgrounds, the studio albums etc

listening to Cornell and right now Scarlett Begonias is really great, but how do you guys deal with stuff like Dancing in the Street (not the middle jam which is ok) but just desecrating the absolute genius and economy of that original into this tepid hippie shuffle then esp at the end when they "break it down" and it's "dan....cin dancing in the streets EVERYBODY"

it's just so mortifying I feel embarrassed fur everyone listening to it and like we clown dudes like Bonnamassa but this is ok?

again on the whole I'm enjoying this and not trying to fight

btw on fire on the mountain and I'm assuming this is why this show was a big deal? pretty cosmik

also small thing but someone should have thrown that Auto wah (envelope filter?) pedal in the trash

no wonder Treehouse banned you.

it's just so mortifying I feel embarrassed fur everyone listening to it and like we clown dudes like Bonnamassa but this is ok?
haha, i was listening to the cornell dancing this week and thinking simultaneously "goddamn this is dumb" and "goddamn this is great."

no wonder Treehouse banned you.

― by the light of the burning Citroën, Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:03 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol do we know each other irl?

i think i heard them referred to as 'this ridiculous band that i can't stop listening to' at one point and that about sums it up. once you get further in, the added context gained makes it sort of addicting to keep digging in no matter how lame it can get. so unless you want to find yourself looking up rankings of different 'take a step backs' on headyversion dot com i'd almost advise not dipping in any further

Yeah, their post-hiatus versions of Dancing are so cringey, though the jams sometimes go to special places. For anyone underwhelmed by Cornell, I strongly recommend the Red Rocks 7/8/78 show that was released last year. It has a similar sanitized coked-up late-70s Dead sheen, but a bit rougher around the edges. It's a total party, with a superior setlist imo. Also Dick's Picks 33, a double-header from 1976, should not be slept on.

xpost - citroen

if you have any legit problem with me please ILX webmail me, that incident was part of many others and not really a joke given his history of attacking people irl and threatening women including getting in my wife's face when we had our 2 yr old with us

xpost - do you guys like old renaissance fairgrounds? that's more early 70s and i really liked that one alot, i think i chose it off a site because it was well regarded?

the early 70s the instrument tones are a lot better....though since those posts i've gotten almost through the scarlett begonias > fire on the mountain > estimated prophet which i'm assuming is probably why this set has such cache

xp

sorry, joking off the Minnesotans thread, well aware of the issues there. (think we've met in the past, and I've seen you play)

'morning dew' is really good from cornell and i don't even generally like their version

>xpost - do you guys like old renaissance fairgrounds?

Oh hell yeah, it's as close as they ever got to the platonic ideal of a Grateful Dead concert and is widely regarded as such. While there are a couple of shows from 72 and 73 that I might prefer personally (4/7 and 4/8/72 and 8/1/73 come to mind), 8/27/72 is truly definitive, and it would be if it only consisted of "Bird Song" and "Dark Star">"El Paso". And the fact that it was captured on film is miraculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URtCml8FHrU

and it would be if it only consisted of "Bird Song" and "Dark Star">"El Paso"

OK, maybe this is hyperbole. It's just a great show!

8/27/72 veneta is probably my candidate for best show of all time -- think it's got everything that's good about the Dead in there, except pigpen (and I'm usually a little lukewarm with him). and the movie is great too. it's what I'd give to anyone wanting to get into the Dead i think.
i like that late 70s autowah/envelope filter haha. wah wah wah wah wah

also small thing but someone should have thrown that Auto wah (envelope filter?) pedal in the trash

this is crazy, Jerry w/ Mu-tron is one of the best sounds in music

8/27/72 veneta is probably my candidate for best show of all time -- think it's got everything that's good about the Dead in there, except pigpen (and I'm usually a little lukewarm with him). and the movie is great too. it's what I'd give to anyone wanting to get into the Dead i think.

otm, major gateway for a lot of people. Turned my gf from "dead hater" to "dead neutral"

"playing in the band" from veneta is infinitely deep

Not a huge fan of the 77 Dancing in the Streets - def prefer the version on Dick's Picks 8 from 1970 (overall, one of the greatest Dead shows) - but I think there's still something admirable about them covering it - an openness to all kinds of American music, a refusal to acknowledge boundaries and distinctions between rock and pop and soul and country. And yeah, I kinda love that funky Auto Wah sound in the right place and time.

Am definitely one of those ppl who think it can't be a definitive Dead Set w/out a Dark Star, which is one of the reasons why Veneta scores so highly, but I'm also very partial to the last London Lyceum show on 5/26/72, and that doesn't have a Dark Star, tho it does feature the Truckin' and Morning Dew (one to rival the Cornell version) from Europe 72, minus the post-production sweetening. Don't think you can go too far wrong with ANY '72 show tbh, definitely their peak year.

xp

sorry, joking off the Minnesotans thread, well aware of the issues there. (think we've met in the past, and I've seen you play)

― by the light of the burning Citroën, Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:19 AM (forty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

cool no worries :)

upper miss you do have to open yourself up to that mu-tron. I'm w/you largely on "dancin'" - waiting for the vocals to stop and the jam to begin on that tune is the longest wait in any post-pigpen Dead show -- but then sometimes it does open into some v cosmic jamming

OTOH while you love the original song it is not even a top 30 motown tune for me so I'm not so bothered by how tepid the presentation of the lyric is in the Dead's read, the words are just there to get to the break

"listening to Cornell and right now Scarlett Begonias is really great, but how do you guys deal with stuff like Dancing in the Street (not the middle jam which is ok) but just desecrating the absolute genius and economy of that original into this tepid hippie shuffle then esp at the end when they "break it down" and it's "dan....cin dancing in the streets EVERYBODY" "

the way i look at the dead, and hopefully this isn't too weird a metaphor, is kind of the way i look at old "doctor who". in that a lot of the time it's just super cheesy and awful and there's no real point in defending it. the dead are about the last band you can say something like "well, even at their worst they're still better than 90% of all the other bands". if you're gonna listen to the dead you kind of have to acknowledge that they're a rubber-monster band and like them either despite that or, possibly, because of that.

when it comes to the dead, i'm a "despite that" guy. i'm never going to develop genuine affection for bob's horrible fashion sense, am always going to skip the tuning tracks. honestly my dead listening is pretty much all '70 and '72 right now and i have no particular desire to "branch out".

last 2 posts are great

the way i look at the dead, and hopefully this isn't too weird a metaphor, is kind of the way i look at old "doctor who". in that a lot of the time it's just super cheesy and awful and there's no real point in defending it. the dead are about the last band you can say something like "well, even at their worst they're still better than 90% of all the other bands". if you're gonna listen to the dead you kind of have to acknowledge that they're a rubber-monster band and like them either despite that or, possibly, because of that.

rubber monster band is great

but how do you guys deal with stuff like Dancing in the Street (not the middle jam which is ok) but just desecrating the absolute genius and economy of that original into this tepid hippie shuffle then esp at the end when they "break it down" and it's "dan....cin dancing in the streets EVERYBODY"

On my first listen, I thought, no way can they pull this off. And in a way, they don't even try -- the original was (not intended as such, but taken up as) a call to revolution. This is a call to, like, lazily twirl around or something. But it's not trying to be anything else, and it works.

Come to think of it, has anyone done a not-awful cover of "Dancing In The Street"? Hell, even the Who's covers of it are awful.

if i had the digital knowhow i'd try to do a mashup of the bowie/jagger version and the dead

from a historical context, i like hearing 60s icons grapple with mid/late 70s moves and grooves -- you've got Dylan going in weird baroque directions with Budokan band, Lou Reed trying to reconcile punk and springsteen (and lenny bruce?), the Dead doing kozmik disco etc. it's not always successful, but it's always interesting (to me anyway).

Yeah, the shocking part was how solid the groove on Dancing is. Jerry really shines in that setting.

(off topic, but tylerw, you once hipped me to some '75 or '76 Dead thing that was all-instrumental and someone fusiony that was pretty mindblowing. I forgot what it is, though...does it ring a bell?)

was it the 1975 SNACK benefit show?
https://archive.org/details/gd1975-03-23.sbd.miller.110126.flac16

Yeah, the shocking part was how solid the groove on Dancing is. Jerry really shines in that setting.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:26 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah this is how i feel about the '77 dancing. the groove is so solid and the breakdowns are so rich

albeit i don't have much of an ability to recognize "cringeworthy" things anymore

Yes! That's the one! Thanks!

xp

holy fucking shit the buffalo show is incredible

Come to think of it, has anyone done a not-awful cover of "Dancing In The Street"? Hell, even the Who's covers of it are awful.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat)

mamas and the papas, monterey '67.

according to a dude on fb, the Cornell show never happened. Pretty air-tight, if you ask me:

I understand why most people think that 5/8/77 was real as can be. It's widely considered to be the holy grail of GD shows. And if it was an actual, real show, it would be just that. But the fact is, that it was a HOAX perpetrated through a joint effort of the US Department of Defense and the CIA. And this is nothing new. My uncle served in �Nam with one of the guys that were actually *in* the CIA experiment. Hell, if you don't believe me, it's even on the archive!There's been a lot of talk lately about the legendary fake show on 5/8/77. I've kept my silence on the subject for 22 years ... now it's finally time to come clean on the whole subject.The whole idea began back in late 1969/early 1970. The Department of Defense and the CIA were very disappointed by the way the Vietnam War was progressing. Not only were we losing but, more importantly, the US public did not approve of the war and, worse yet, weren't believing everything the military said about what was happening. This was an unprecedented event. Every other recent war was viewed positively by the public ... or at least with apathy in the case of Korea. Something had to be done. They decided to take a page from the Soviets and experiment with mind control. Together with Disney and a fledgling computer company called Microsoft, they set out to prove that brainwashing could really work on the very people who opposedthem: the hippies.It isn't widely known but Cornell was actually the second test of these mind control procedures. The first occurred in mid-1975 and was a dismal failure. 2 major mistakes were made. First, they picked the one time that the Dead were not touring. This created all sorts of problems with the subject audience. The more serious mistake was in not updating the criteria of the experiment. Due to typical government inefficiency, they used the 1969 version of the Dead that was playing when the program was conceived. The sudden appearance of Pigpen, who had died 2 years earlier, literally blew the minds of those in attendance. 6 months were spent erasing all traces of the "show" and carefully rebuilding as much of their minds as possible. Thesubjects were eventually released and most of them became evangelists, their only lingering memory of the whole experiment being an unshakeable belief that they'd witnessed a true miracle.Unfortunately, no tapes have been found from this first experiment. That's a real shame because the version of Dark Star-> St Stephen-> Eleven-> Lovelight used was supposedly the best ever. After a few drinks, the original scientists still speak in awe about the music heard that day.By Nov 1977, everyone was ready for the second test. This time, they learned from their mistakes. A small group of college students were hired to attend shows from 1976 through 1977. Our job was to collect tapes of the Dead's performances, select which tunes to use, and tohelp identify subjects for the upcoming experiment. The location and date were chosen with equal care. It was a off-day during the tour and the location close enough to the real concerts to be believed. Of moreimportance was the late snowfall that day. That unusual and easily confirmed event provided the glue that would hold the implanted memories together. Even now 22 years later, people "remembering" that concert use almost identical words to describe leaving the show.Overall, the experiment was a great success. Of course, some people were given slightly different memories. Some, like Teddy Goodbear, "remember" taping the show and were even provided "Audience" tapes to further cement the hoax. Still others remember getting "horribly smashed" up front. None of this actually occurred.A week after the "concert" experiment, a 2nd test was done on the town of Cornell itself. In order to perfect this hoax, the town itself must also be convinced that the concert took place. Disney had acquired owner- ship of all the local TV and radio stations through dummy corporations. Using special chips developed by Microsoft, they played sublimbminal messages to every man, woman and child in a 100 mile radius of Barton Hall. For the most part, this programming still holds today although some people did prove resistant to the message.As far as the source of the music, for the most part the list posted by "brew ziggins" is correct. The only mystery remaining is the Scarlet-> Fire. That was actually performed by the Dead specifically for this experiment. Since Jerry worked for the CIA, it was easy to convince him and the rest of the band to go along. Plus he liked the idea of "pranking" a large group of people like this. The fabled 2/6/77 "take a step back" rehearsal tape is also from material taped for these experiments.The soundboard tapes in circulation were leaked by Betty O'Connell whoedited the original tapes. I don't know if it was just a coincidence or not, but they were leaked at about the same time as the tapes recorded by Betty Cantor were found. In any event, they became part of the so-called "Betty Boards". Leaking these tapes also provided the first cracks in the hoax to appear since the tapes were distributed to people who were not in the experiment and who knew that no show was performed that day. It was necessary to obtain their silence through blackmail, bribery and in extreme cases, mind control itself. That's also how this "show" came to be listed in all the popular Dead show guides like DeadBase.So what's happened to these mind control techniques used in this experiment? Microsoft has used this power to become one of the biggest, most influential companies in history. They sure didn't become that big by providing quality products. It was used to shape public reaction to the Gulf War. It's also clear that George Bush never understood the full power of these methods. . There are also indications that this technology might explain the otherwise unbelievable popularity of rap music.That's the whole story."BARTON HALL, ITHACA, NY 5/8/77 -- The Show That Never Happened"Track listing Actual Source------------ ---------------1.Minglewood Blues [4:47] Winterland 3/20/772.Loser [7:30] Springfield 4/23/773.El Paso [4:22] Chicago 5/13/774.They Love Each Other [6:59] Lakeland 5/21/775.Jack Straw [6:00] Tempe 10/6/776.Deal [5:43] St. Paul 5/11/777.Lazy Lightnin' [3:29] > St. Louis 5/15/778.Supplication [4:21] "9.Brown-Eyed Women [5:12] Winterland 6/8/7710.Mama Tried [2:37] Seattle 9/29/7711.Row Jimmy [10:52] Fox, Atlanta 5/19/7712.Dancin' in the Streets [15:43] Pembroke Pines 5/22/77 (DP3)Set II:13.Scarlet Begonias [9:14] > ???14.Fire on the Mountain [15:21] ???15.Estimated Prophet [8:32] Passaic NJ 4/27/7716.St. Stephen [4:43] > Mostly Passaic NJ 6/18/7617.Not Fade Away [16:22] > with some tricky splicing of the18.St. Stephen [1:53] > middle of an unidentified NFA19.Morning Dew [13:36] Cow Palace 12/31/76Encore:20.One More Saturday Night [4:54] Springfield 4/23/77

Since Jerry worked for the CIA,

This is covered a bit in the (just ok) new book about Cornell '77

Watching the new Amazon doc, pretty great, though the early 70s concert is so.... repellent... There's no other word. Just all these drugged out naked people writing around, announcements hey can so and so please come to the tent you lost (or forgot) your child. I almost get panic attack thinking about being there

another world is possible maaan

also dosing people without their knowledge or consent seems like a pretty fucked up thing to do

definitely stuck out that Garcia's daughter called him "Jerry."

Yeah that dosing part was crazy
Haven't seen part 4 yet

Ramrod and all those roadies were a real bunch

i watched the whole thing yesterday & feel a renewal of interest. it's such a gaping maw of a rabbit hole though i've always hung back

i told Mr Veg that I maybe finally ready to try listening to a live show & he just shook his head sadly *he worked for Bill Graham in his 20's & did every Bay Area Dead show from 88-93. He has had Dead-related PTSD ever since*

since tylerw has never steered me wrong on Floyd, i might check out 8/27/72 Veneta

but if I come back later saying I've made a mix of my favorite Dark Star versions or some shit then please kindly kill me

8/27/72 'playing in the band' is what i'd play to convert a hater

The Veneta show was one of my ways in. After whole decades of absolutely despising the Dead, that show's "Dark Star" (as posted by Scott Seward on another thread) shocked me -- I didn't hate it.

I just got the Oakland '76 shows, where they opened for the Who and played twice as long. Apart from digging them (and generally preferring these shows to Cornell), I realized with horror that I haven't even heard the Who's sets from these shows. And the contemporary review reprinted in the booklet praises both bands, but somewhat hilariously criticizes the Who for "aimless noodling."

pot black etc

I know, right?

After Monterey, Townshend said the Dead were "terrible...one of the original ropeys!"

But by 1981 he figured, "eh, these guys have some good coke, might as well sit in with them":

https://youtu.be/20dic8S3cWI

the whole doc series was pretty affecting
i can see why scorcese was a producer, it's got the tragic arc he prefers, a burst of freedom in the 60s and 70s hardens into a gilded prison and ultimately death and betrayal and hard drugs throughout the 80s and 90s

on one hand felt bad for jerry for what the whole thing had become, him trapped in his hotel room as these bud light bros rioted outside of football stadiums, but at the same time his passivity and unwillingess to ever change anything -- or most importantly ever take responsibility for anything-- was frustrating

on the other hand the whole thing was an amazing venture...the only band that really tried to try to live out the ethos of the 1960s for the rest of their lives, even though it turned into a nightmare

the part on the tape trading scene and the sheer volume of improv music they made over the years was stunning

al franken talking about "althea" guitar solos was really cuet <3

some of the people in that doc have a serious case of ray manzarek-itis when they wax philosophical about the band lol

the whole thing so gripping and i'm a very casual fan

"take a step back! and yet another step back! do you all feel better? ...what do you mean, 'no'?"

Someone should do a "Grayfolded"-type collage of all the "take a step back!"s.

i think someone's done a collection of weir's dumbest stage banter ...

Okay now listening to the Buffalo show :) woohaaa this project is eating me alive.