At what point did Jimmy Page realize his band was now on a downward arc?

no question... the stones have no riffs

I'm assuming this is a joke?

― Bill Teeters (Tom D.), Monday, April 3, 2017 2:02 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, compared to Zep...

the iconic Stones riffs are "Satisfaction" and... hmmm

riffs =/= chord progressions & rhythm parts. most stones songs are defined by keith's rhythm guitar. there isn't a lot of riffage like with Zep & Sabbath

xp yeah 'Satisfaction' is the only one i can think of. 'Start Me Up' is iconic but that's not really a riff, it's a rhythm part

Obviously a riff has to be iconic before some people notice it.

i think keith richards still makes disparaging remarks about zeppelin. about bonham especially, afaik
Why would he be disparaging about Bonham? Not his drumming that's for sure!
― Bill Teeters (Tom D.), Monday, April 3, 2017 1:09 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

looks like he has rude things to say about pretty much everybody:
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/keith-richards-led-zeppelin-comment/

xxpost now you've lost me. like are you saying a rhythm guitarist isn't playing "riffs"?

is Sabbath's "Sweet Leaf" not a riff?

'Start Me Up' is iconic but that's not really a riff, it's a rhythm part

Everyone agrees what a riff is, do they? I don't know, I'm asking.

"Whole Lotta Love", is that a riff or a 'rhythm part'?

to me a "riff" is a lead line, not full strumming. idk i've thought about this a lot and haven't really come to a rock solid conclusion

whole lotta love is a riff, so is sweat leaf.... i need to gather my thoughts on this. bc start me up is definitely not a riff...

"Start Me Up" is a riff.

i'd say it's more of a lick

That's my take on it anyway, riffs tend to be rhythm guitar based, "Satisfaction" is more of a lead line actually.

Can't You Hear Me Knocking, riff or lick?

xxxxpost Whole Lotta is a riff to my ears. to me what makes a riff vs a 'chord progression' = whether it stands out on its own. can you hum it? or is it more ancillary, specifically meant to serve as the foundation for the vocals and doesn't really stand out as memorable by itself?

maybe not the best rubric but idk

Brown Sugar, Jumping Jack Flash, Street Fighting Man, Get Off of My Cloud, Bitch, The Last Time, 19th Nervous Breakdown, Honky Tonk Women, Tumbling Dice, Start Me Up, Beast Of Burden...

Are we really discussing this? I agree they are different bands and this might also be a question of defining a riff or even a "riff band" or whatever. Probably healthier to stick to the Sabbath comparisons. The Stones are playing on a different level completely. That sounds sort of smug but I actually believe it completely so fuck it.

LOL @ "The Stones have no riffs", flappy you truly are the gift that keeps on giving. You not understanding what a riff is has bizarrely made my day. Well done!

Yes, a riff can be a rhythm part. Therefore, 'Start Me Up' is a riff, 'Sweet Leaf' is a riff, the chord progression to 'Smells Like Teen Spirit', played in the way it is played, is a riff. Now crawl back under a rock. Next you'll be telling us all George Martin wasn't a musician...

...ah wait, you did!

Turrican, I will admit- for the most part, Animal Collective do not have riffs.

it was only a matter of time before Led Zeppelin tore us apart. and weirdly without Bill Magill

ILM has a passionate Stones fanbase which doesn't let offhanded dismissive remarks slide. As it should.

Is this what happens to the brain when one overexposes themselves to Animal Collective!? Fucking hell...

Anyway, as much as I have a lot of time for the Stones, if I had to choose between the Stones and Zeppelin, it'd be Zeppelin every time. I prefer the way they play, I prefer the sound that those four people make and I prefer the way their records sound.

Upper mississippi OTM about Sabbath too, again, as much as I love Sabbath, their "evilness" always seemed a little cartoony and theatrical.

I've got a secret for you guys: Black Sabbath were secretly a Christian rock band. (Granted, their Christianity was that of terrified medieval peasants, but still.)

Yeah, there's definitely a couple of things that nod in that direction on Master of Reality...

a coupla things? I remember being 16 and confused af when I read the lyrics to "After Forever" inside my dad's vinyl.

it's such a drag that 'After Forever' (their best riff) is Geezer Butler evangelizing via Ozzy

terrified medieval peasants

I know Aston is bad but I'm not sure it's quite that bad.

xxpost:

Ha, that's the main one I was thinking of!

at 16 I thought they were being sarcastic but then wondered if anybody would really be sarcastic across an entire album about something like that

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F_iWG5gAclE/UCkgtL9cxbI/AAAAAAAAXdM/-JGTNnK9XNE/s1600/iommi.jpg

Yeah, Black Sabbath were paranoid as fuck about "evil vibes maaaaan" ... 'tis why band members started wearing crosses, allegedly to ward off "evil spirits", and why Iommi punched Ozzy in the face for ripping up Bibles in hotel rooms. Drugs, man.

Well the Christian thing was sort of key for Sabbath's dismissal among chief critics at the time no? Lester Bangs was maybe the first one to explicitly call them a Christian band I think. He was a fan though.

lick vs. riff is a debate that the philosophers have debated for ages

Taking sides: Riffs vs Licks

I've got a secret for you guys: Black Sabbath were secretly a Christian rock band.

true, any Satanic band is basically exploring the Christian spiritual hierarchy

yup. all Satanic bands are Christian bands.

moonlight is sunlight

Poop is food

Black Sabbath weren't a satanic band at all, though.

By that logic, Christian bands are all Satanic bands, which means U2 are satanists.

true, any Satanic band is basically exploring the Christian spiritual hierarchy

Well, when you're talking about King Diamond or Slayer or Deicide singing songs about Satan, and arguing that they're playing the Christians' game by even acknowledging their deity as a legit adversary, that's a different thing. I'm straight-up saying Black Sabbath were pro-God and pro-Jesus, and the occult imagery was deployed in a "sinners in the hands of an angry God/behold the torments of Hell and repent your wicked ways" way rather than a "we love the Devil!" way.

otm

yeah that's a legit distinction

also jumping back a bit, even if we restrict the definition of 'riff' to 'lead line', surely paint it black is almost as famous as satisfaction?

xpost otm x 2

paved the way for such fun like Demon Hunter

By that logic, Christian bands are all Satanic bands, which means U2 are satanists.

satanists are a subsect of Christianity, not the other way around. But yes, I'm sure Bono believes in the devil, probably the same way Antonin Scalia did

xp

the devil is MULTINATIONAL COMMERCE

誤訳侮辱 OTM.

Trying to clarify what I said earlier: a riff is rhythmic and essential to the song's identity, but it's usually not chordal - Paint it Black is definitely a riff, so is Satisfaction, but i maintain that Start Me Up is not a riff.

a lick does not repeat - a lick isn't the core of the song like a riff

also jumping back a bit, even if we restrict the definition of 'riff' to 'lead line', surely paint it black is almost as famous as satisfaction?

Yes, as is 'The Last Time' ...