sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

[one of the best threads i've read on ILM in a while, thanks guys!]

Dylan quoted as saying, "I'm in awe of McCartney."

Also, Memory Almost Full is really good.

I heard it in the Whole Foods the other day

that was quite enough

THIS JUST IN: MACCA DISCOVERS THE UKELIELIEE

One of the reasons I should get one of those Rhapsody or eMusic subs is is to make my own Paul comp; but meanwhile, craving that modencholy vocal with other output, think I'll dig up battered old LP of Andy Fairweather Low's La Booga Rooga, one of my most-played of the 70s. Xgau got me into him. The 70s Guide is my most-read xgau book, certainly most evocative of the Guides, though I should read more of the collected essays. And this is from one of my favorite in the 70s Guide: "Randy Newman: Born Again (Warner Bros '79) This has more content and feeling then Little Criminals...the content comprises ever more intricate convolutions of bad taste; rather than making you think about homophobes and heavy-metal toughs and me-decade assholes the way he once made you think about rednecks and slave traders and high school belles, he makes you think about how he feels about them. Which just isn't as interesting. B+" Yeah, if the writer's engagement with the subject can lead the listener to more direct engagement, via a dissolving middleman! And if the reviewer could do that too--it's tricky, especially when it is a Consumer's Guide, you gotta get on with it, hence the grades, for those who really just want that aspect. But it's a hell of a thing to try: and getting people to say, "What the hell does he mean?" can work great, IF you can get them irritated times intrigued enough to think it through. Sundar, I don't dismiss all Sonic Youth, but my fave tracks are atypical, like when they cool it with the guitars and give it up to the beats, on "Hits Of Sunshine (For Allen Ginsberg)" (feeding the imagery some hits of wit doesn't hurt either). If you want to check Stan Kenton, start with the CD version (bonus tracks, crystalline sound) of an LP that Robert Stone said he used to trip to in the 50s, City Of Glass.

I think there was a thread where we could ask what RC means by some of his comments. I usually get him OK but I'm genuinely unsure what this actually means, from his Close to the Edge review:

Conclusion: At the level of attention they deserve they're a one-idea group. Especially with Jon and Rick up front.

Does this just mean "They're a one-idea group and they don't deserve to be regarded as anything more?" (And if so, I'm not sure it jives with the rest of the review, which seems to give them credit for more than one idea.) Or does it mean "They have far too many ideas for their own good. In fact, the result is such a mess that, really, they're no better than a one-idea group and deserve only that level of attention. Especially since the singer and keyboard player suck so much?"

(BTW thanks for the Stan Kenton tip. Just saw that now.)

It might just mean that xgau doesn't like the "idea" of the group's existence itself (whatever the hell that may have been), and found it to be an all-too-convenient way of dissing them. This is probably the most annoying aspect of his writing/thinking, as far as I'm concerned; he doesn't like the artist/group for purely ethical/moral reasons (e.g. Dre, GnR, Death Certificate, etc.), but can't really find anything concrete about the record itself to fault. So, here comes the "easy" putdown, that often as not, doesn’t have all that much to do with the music/performances he's wrestling with in the first place. {Does that even make any sense? It's back to the crack-rock grind for me, I guess.)

They're a one-idea group and their one idea is the seasons of man "or something like that." So the quintessential refrain of "I get up I get down" and all that eclecticism get applied to the seasons of man theme.

John, I don't see how ethical/moral issues are not concrete things in music. That notorious verse in "One in a Million" is about as concrete as things ever get in music.

But in all those reviews you mentioned, he does talk about "music/performance." In the GNR review: "Axl's voice is a power tool with attachments, Slash's guitar a hype, the groove potent "hard rock," and the songwriting not without its virtues. So figure musical quality at around C plus..." And also re: "One in a Million": "(The notorious verse) is disgusting because it's heartfelt and disgusting again because it's a grandstand play.

His review of The Chronic is almost entirely about music. In fact, it's explicitly so since he immediately moves from the casual violence of Dre's lyrics (but also sound) to his sample-less production.

And he does discuss the music in his Ice Cube feature. But as he says, "So hubba hubba and big fucking deal...Its Good Qualities still don't come close to making up for its Offensive Content."

I think there was a thread where we could ask what RC means by some of his comments.

Oooh. Does anyone know where this thread is?

haha--here it is, Kevin (This is the thread where you ask for help in parsing one of Robert Christgau's sentences.). Read it and weep.

Heh yeah that's a good 'un too, but Kevin, you mean where he answers questions? Wasn't that on rockcritics.com? If so, prob still there. It wasn't really a thread though, more like a one-shot guest appearence, with listeners (including at least one heckler)calling (writing) in.

No, I meant the thread that John just linked to. I'm scared...

BTW, what I was ever so feebly tryin' to get at above, was that occasionally Xgau seems to let his principles get in the way of his ears; particularly in regard to Death Certificate, I'd say, from which I'm almost certain that if you were to magically delete a track or two, Bob would automatically upgrade it to an A- or--dare I say it--perhaps even a solid A,.

Concerning the musical quality of the other two, I simply don't agree with him; not that they're perfect records or anything--just a lot better than he seems willing to admit to. Largely, I think, due to whatever questionable ethical assumption he may have formed for whatever reason. Such is life.

has anyone asked him if he's changed his mind at all about Appetite?

can't imagine why he would.

i like it, but the problems he has with it still exist. he'd probably still prefer the spaghetti incident.

occasionally Xgau seems to let his principles get in the way of his ears

But don't we all let our principles get in the way of our ears? Or rather, isn't it impossible NOT to let them get in the way? I suppose we should all aspire to listening as selflessly as possible, to hear something as if it were totally disconnected for our (or ultimately anyone else's) experiences. And I don't mean that facetiously. That really is a beautiful goal. But that kind of formalism is just as much a principle as any other kind of stance towards music.

In any event, Xgau acknowledges that he'd give the GNR EP a C+ had it not been for "One in a Million" (and maybe some other tracks). And I don't see much wrong with that.

It may be impossible to hear "One in a Million" without the baggage. But if we could, how compelling a track is it really? (I know you weren't saying it was compelling, John. Just throwing it out there.)

haha--here it is, Kevin (This is the thread where you ask for help in parsing one of Robert Christgau's sentences.). Read it and weep.

Oh gawd, THAT one! Yes, I've read some of that. Ugly shit. Would it anger the ILX gods if I, a decided non-hater, started a new, less contentious thread?

i guarantee any such thread would still be contentious no matter how it started

Eric Weisbard discusses "One in a Million" in his 33 1/3 book; he seems inclined to think it "just" a nasty joke. I have to find the reference.

Dammit! I'm trying to find a link to that q&a he did for Scott on Rockcritics.com without any sucess. Anybody out there got it?

Here:

http://rockcriticsarchives.com/interviews/robertchristgau/01.html

I'll still take Chuck's take of "One in a Millio" (from STH) over any other I've come across.

xp

Ah, you are most kind. Thank ye.

His reply to this bit always annoyed the hell out of me, fwiw:

> >From: Dave Q
> >Date: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:32 AM

Hi Dean! You are truly God-like and I know all your books inside out and back to front--as a writer you are without peer. (The Dave Mason section in the '70s CG book is the best comedy writing I have ever seen.) However, this question is directed to the "critic" more than the "writer"--does it ever bother you that many of the acts dismissed as "meltdown" or "D-" in earlier CGs have gone on to be revered and subject to massive critical re-estimation (e.g. Black Sabbath, Tim Buckley), while others who you championed (e.g., various singer-songwriters) have vanished without trace, and their records aren't even in print anymore? When current bands that you like cite Rush, Japan and Montrose as "influences" does it elicit a benign chuckle, or a Homer Simpson forehead-slap, or do you see it as more depressing evidence that civilization really is ending? I'm just wondering how this affects writers in general as we're in a unique period in history where the pioneers of a sub-genre (rockcrit) are still active but have now been around long enough to see what effect their ideas have had on pop music, or pop music discourse at least.

It's never occurred to me that '70s AOR/art-rock is responsible for the shallowness of today's pop, such as it is. Studio virtuosity has been a law unto itself in pop since before the rock era.

(at least the description of Axl's voice as a power drill is there as a putdown *or* a compliment, depending on what you like, and ditto some other putdowns that got me buying and liking some albums he low-rated [and Chuck's mentioned having the same experiece], so hey, some good journalism at times)Re "One In A Million": Since Axl *brought it up,* sticks his *social commentary in yo face,* as he probably would have put it at the time, he's trying to *push your button,* as well as *get something off my chest,* so surely warrants
*a significant opposing viewpoint,* as the FCC used to mandate for TV editorials (remmeber those? On your local affiliate of the three coommerical networks, and I guess if you had a local UHF indie station, would apply to that too). The music's not that hot(esp not by Appetite For Destruction-established standards), and most entertaining line is the one after squealing about "police and niggers" and "immigrants and faggots,"about worrying that furriners might start "some mini-Iran," apparently meaning they might might be *intolerant.*

Actually (though there's no reason Xgau or Anthony or Don or Kevin or anybody else should necessarily agree with this, if they don't) the music of "One In A Million" is pretty hot -- it's one of GnR's best post-Appetite songs, musically and otherwise (and its story, as I've said about a million times, is pretty much exactly the same story X told in "Los Angeles," just first person instead of third person -- not to mention not far from the story that Axl tells in most of the songs on Appetite, which is the same story that Donna Summer tells in most of the songs on Bad Girls). Also, fwiw, GnR Lies isn't an EP; it's an album (maybe the second best one -- and, at worst, the third-best one -- GnR ever made). And Slash's guitar playing is much better than a "hype." (There's a good and contentious "One In A Million" thread around here somewhere -- GnR vs Aaliyah -- but the search function, as often happens, is only turning up "I Love Everything" threads right now.)

It's sung pretty well too.

I've changed my mind about it over the years. What used to gall me was, as usual, how easily a song sung "in character" was taken seriously by assholes. Whatever -- that was high school. And Donna Summer said some nasty shit away from a recording studio, so.

Yep, great thread:

Aaliyah's "One in a Million" vs. Guns N'Roses' "One in a Million"

^^^ Definitely.

I commented on that thread, and have since changed my mind. I sound like Richard Goldstein or somebody.

Yeah, it took this here immigrant a while to come to terms with this one as well. But then, "It's all Greek to me."

his "shooting STAAAAAAAAAARR" vocals would bother me even if he left out the naughty word part. music's neither here nor there for me. not impressed by x's lyrics either.

JN$OT: Question you don't have to answer - who are you (if you have a name I might recognize, which I have a feeling you do. If not, disregard.)? Just curious.

I'm not really anybody in particular, Rev. Just another obsessive music geek lookin' to kill some time and have a few laffs while doing so. Also, despite my lame login, y'all can call me John (or Ioannis, as my mama named me).

Oh, alright. I was under the impression, for whatever reasons, that you were some crit type.

"Taken seriously by assholes": sounds like you're taking its words seriously too, seriously enough to defend by snarling (which is appropriate, given the song) (but the great "Denounce Public Enemy for harboring Professor Griff!" "Fuck you, denounce 'One In A Million' first!" family feeyood among rock critics should not be revived, though I can't resist mentioning it, being an asshole)9but also a lazy asshole, so I got no more to say about this, except:xpost xxhuxx if Exene had put the girl in "Los Angeles" up front, first person in our faces (as she kinda did in a Re:Search interview, denoucning "faggots" takin' over the at world etc), instead of flying away, I prob would have had the same reaction, except I like the music of that better)(as I like some of the other songs on Lies better than "One In A Million"). Reading fans! Read Luc Sante's new collection, Kill Your Darlings (speaking of glametal titles, although this one is also advice from Faulkner)

Except maybe you're not defending it, in which case,sorry for reading you wrong.

as i recall, xgau says greil marcus refused to speak to him for a while after reading a piece of his on public enemy, on the grounds that he (xgau) was "defending their anti-semitism" or somesuch.

chuck OTM re interchangeability of "los angeles" and "one in a million," except that the protagonist of the former's been there too long and the latter's just got there.

the voice music section is so much better now

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000002KMV.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

(as she kinda did in a Re:Search interview, denoucning "faggots" takin' over the at world etc)

OMG! Exene said this? Where exactly?

Another in the "you don't have to answer" category: John, do you live in the States?

And Donna Summer said some nasty shit away from a recording studio, so.

Can we get some concrete evidence of this? I've heard she said that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuals. Adn where did she "poke nervous fun at the gay men who made her a star?" References? Wikipedia needs a citation for the area of the Donna Summer entry.

OK, so my 1st guess was more or less correct. But then it just seems like he was using perverse syntax to say something straightforward. (I'm still not sure that sentence makes sense. "They're a one-idea group who deserve only that much attention" has one less word in it.) I'm not even sure I get that criticism though. Would it be better if there was no one theme or organizing principle to an eclectic 20-minute track? Is "Marquee Moon" less of a one-idea piece? Is he just saying "Instead of writing lots of different short songs like a rock band should, they're so obsessed with this one dumbass 'seasons of man' idea that they try to connect them all to this one idea?"

Kevin, the Re: Search issue with the Exene interview (odd-size trade binding)is in the Fine Arts stacks at my local library: I'll check the issue no., page no. soon as I can get back over there (this interview really was *a long, long time ago*, she might well have changed quite a lot, and who knows how it was edited.Guess the point of the song was people who get stressed by living in L.A., zooming in on somebody to blame. I know she's said in recent interviews that, no matter how much better her life there got, like with her dayjob as a teaching assistant at her kid's school, she'd saved up til she could buy a house in Missouri, and when she'd saved some more, would move out there permanently, as I think she's since done [still tours with X, and records with her other band] Also in the Re: Search interview, interesting stuff about her life in Florida, before moving to L.A.

Thanx, Dow!!

Sundar to answer your questions in order:

Would it be better if there was no one theme or organizing principle to an eclectic 20-minute track?

No, it would be better if there was no one LAME theme or... Lame to Xgau, natch.

Is "Marquee Moon" less of a one-idea piece?

Well, if you're asking Xgau, he'd undoubtedly say yes. Or maybe that the one idea is a great one. Or waaaay greater than "the seasons of man."

Is he just saying "Instead of writing lots of different short songs like a rock band should, they're so obsessed with this one dumbass 'seasons of man' idea that they try to connect them all to this one idea?"

He'd never require a rock band to write short songs. As you intimated, he adores "Marquee Moon." And he loves The Grateful Dead who wrote/played longer than Yes ever did. But yes, he believes that Yes is obsessed with this seasons of man theme and that they do try to connect their songs (long or short) to it. And the songs are poorer for it.

Can we get some concrete evidence of this? I've heard she said that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuals. Adn where did she "poke nervous fun at the gay men who made her a star?"

Skimming through her vapid autobiography a few years ago at B&N, she alluded to how the most intense part of her Christian phase drove her to say nasty things, and the gay stuff was one of them. I may be remembering it incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure she apologized to The Gays.

Yeah, I got the letter. :)

the voice music section is so much better now

Seriously, you have got to be kidding! As I'm certain Kogan and others would be only too happy to attest to, the Voice music section started goin' downhill as soon as the powers that be imposed ever more stringently limited word counts on reviews.

John, do you live in the States?

Nope. I've been living in Greece since '93, Kevin; hence my keeping such odd hours--as far as American posters are concerned, that is--on ILX.