ILX Poker Players Unite

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Yancey, what kind of hands do you see early flops with? And how important is position? How much of a raise will you call with sub-premium hands? Do you avoid the first orbit or two because that's when maniacs will be pushing anything to try and double up?

Sorry for all the questions - I'm really struggling with this and I tend to play like David says, ultra-rock-like until I'm being eaten by the blinds and my fold equity is almost worthless against all the players with 5-10x my stack.

I just can't get my head round a rebuy tourney - even though I can be quite Laggy I am naturally cautious, and thinking ah well, I'll go all in with QTo cos I can always rebuy just doesn't work for me. I'll stick to nice, cheap, unthreatening freezeouts I think :)

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 17 October 2005 14:36 (eighteen years ago) link

While I'm not Yancey, here's how I see it (&, yeah, position is very very key) (& please note that I probably don't follow my own advice):

- early position: suited connectors, AJ up, pocket pairs TT or higher; I usually raise w/ KK or AA or AK, tho I think accepted knowledge sez to either raise minimally or slowplay w/ those hands.

- middle position: suited connectors, face-carded connectors, pocket pairs; maybe raise w/ KQ suited or something similar, always raise w/ face-carded pp?

- late position: depending on what's preceded, go for it w/ just about any hand that has potential, and put down the hammer if you got the good stuff w/ lots of callers

If I'm off-base, someone w/ skillz plz let me know! (Of course, you'll need to switch it up to keep people honest, esp. in tourneys.)

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 October 2005 14:48 (eighteen years ago) link

that sounds good, david. when i'm on the button i'll play pretty much anything, provided there aren't any raises greater than, say, $60. (8-2, 7-2, etc excepted of course) but those suited connectors (7-8, 6-7, 9-10) can be BIG MONEY. but beware the flushes -- someone might be in there with a better one. but you should get a strong sense from betting patterns if you have it or not.

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 17 October 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

FINALLY: if you raise with a middling pocket pair (4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s) and a flop hits with face cards and you had more than one caller, make ONE PLAY at the flop with a big bet, and if you get called or raised, run. going into the hand you were the favorite, but once you see paint you can safely assume that you are an underdog. against one other person you can push harder, especially if they only call rather than raise. if you get a calling station to the river, consider trying for all in, unless the player has been proven to overplay weak hands, in which case his bottom-pair on the board (like 10s when there's a,k and j on the board and yr playing 8s) will take you out.

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 17 October 2005 15:33 (eighteen years ago) link

pls note that i break all of these rules all of the time but seem to do best when i follow them

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 17 October 2005 15:33 (eighteen years ago) link

If I wasn't skittish before about online gaming, I am now after reading about the dudes who play four or five hands at the same table via unique telephone lines.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 17 October 2005 16:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Things I just learned tonight:

1) When you have 3 people in a pot, and one goes AI pre-flop, you're supposed to check your remaining opponent to the river - it's the "ethical" thing to do.

2) When you have T8 suited, and the turn gives you a Q-high straight, don't bet w/ it, because the other guy's gonna have KT suited and take your chips.

2a) Losing this hand is proof that you, Mr. Bet With One Guy All In, are unethical, rude, and got what you deserved.

2b) Thinking that this "check to river" thing is chickenshit nonsense is wrong wrong wrong. You got what you deserved. Prepare for some bad luck.

3) When you're dealt AQ suited the very next hand in early position, FOLD because there's someone waiting across the table w/ AK. DO NOT raise 4x the blind and then go AI when the paint-free flop comes.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 04:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Note to self: LEARN HOW TO READ STRAIGHT DRAWS

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 04:15 (eighteen years ago) link

#1 is bullshit.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 04:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Tell that to the melonheaded namby-pamby shitwits I play against! This is the SECOND TIME that nonsense has come up - the first time (when I once again deigned to bet in such a situation), half the table was like, "yeah, man, WTF?" and I was like "no, YOU WTF? do you want to WIN CHIPS, or do you want to play La La Check-n-Fold?"

Please note that I believe #2 and #3 are bullshit as well (tho I'm at fault in #2) (at fault for forgetting I have the luck of a dead black cat under a ladder).

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 14:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i wouldn't go 4x the blind with AQ suited full stop

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

pot odds smot odds.

bingo (Chris V), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 15:40 (eighteen years ago) link

i love me some implied odds

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

A rule that came up the other night about flushes - Let's say that K-Q-J-8 of diamonds are showing. One player has the 6 and another has the 5 of diamonds. Both have flushes.

One side of the table says that Player 1 should win the pot because his flush is made up of higher cards (6 over 5). The other side says that the flush is judged by its highest card, in this case the Ace, and the other four cards are irrelevant. The two players would split the pot.

Apparently, the TV shows play like the latter, but it still nags me that the first player might've had a better hand.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

in my new house i have a partially finished man basement which is going to be converted into a poker room. only two more weeks.

bingo (Chris V), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 15:42 (eighteen years ago) link

One side of the table says that Player 1 should win the pot because his flush is made up of higher cards (6 over 5). The other side says that the flush is judged by its highest card, in this case the Ace

where did the Ace come from?

yeah, rules like that should be defined beforehand.

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 15:45 (eighteen years ago) link

The five best cards count, so if one player's 5th best diamond is a 6 it beats another's 5. Full stop.

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 16:07 (eighteen years ago) link

That "only the high card in a flush matters" rule seems kinda silly. The first player SHOULD have the better hand - why should the "kicker" in a flush be treated any differently than a "kicker" in a non-flush?

Yeah! What Markelby said!

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 16:09 (eighteen years ago) link

I wrote "Ace" instead of K. I have no short-term memory anymore. WHICH REALLY HELPS IN POKER.

I did think that the "a flush is a flush" rule didn't ring right. However, I play with a bunch of dudes who watch WPT and ESPN2 poker all the time, and they said that's how the pro's do it.

Well, just because the American League in baseball has a Designated Hitter doesn't mean that makes it right.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 16:36 (eighteen years ago) link

i am generally in favor of the "check it down" rule in tourneys, simply because it sucks if someone bluffs at the pot, gets everyone else to fold, and then loses to the all-in player, thereby tripling them up and prolonging the game, costing everyone else money, etc. but this is by no means a standard poker rule.

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 16:45 (eighteen years ago) link

If I have a good hand think that I can win the hand, I want to squeeze as much blood out of that turnip as possible. If I've got four aces, no frickin' way am I going to sit there and check the remaining opponent.

Someone who would bluff with a bad hand in that situation likely wouldn't last long at the table anyway.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Yup, I'll always bet if I think I have a good chance at having the winning hand - and I will bet hard so that the showdown is just me vs initial all-inner if I think I'm vulnerable.

So - I got my first money finish on Saturday night! 5th in a Pokerroom $5.50 MTT - I beat 450 players to get there :) Annoyingly, I was actually chip leader with only 5 left, but a mixture of bad luck and mediocre play crippled me before my 66 was beaten by an AKo who made his flush dammit. The prize was $113 - the real money started at 4th, grr. Still, I'm pleased really.

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 24 October 2005 12:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Congrats, Mark!

I suck ass. Lost @ a ring table w/ 22 when a 2 flopped but a big stack (w / 33) chased my bets to the river to get a 7-high straight. Was dealt AQ off early in a tourney when the folks directly to my right were dealt AK suited and AA, and went AI on a questionable flop because I thought the big stack (w/ AA, of course) was full of it, and I'm stupid. And lost w/ 99 because my trips came on the flop w/ two suited cards and some loose-betting shitwit (and the other guy in the hand) went AI four to the flush after I bet half the pot AND THE FLUSH HIT OF COURSE BECAUSE GOD FORBID AI BIG STACKED FLUSH CHASING SLAPHEADS SHOULD LOSE TO ME.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 24 October 2005 12:51 (eighteen years ago) link

the other day i won a load of chips from betting high on the flop after some dude went all in, another dude called me with his crap hand, i lost the main pot to the all in man, but the side pot was way bigger.

ken c (ken c), Monday, 24 October 2005 12:52 (eighteen years ago) link

David, why do you never tell us of your good wins that MUST outnumber the shitty beats you always seem to suffer? Cos you'#re clearly a decent player - are you too reckless? Do you refuse to fold hands that you know are probably beat but dammit you've got KK and you ain't folding that?

p.s. you got a problem with slapheads? ;)

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 24 October 2005 12:57 (eighteen years ago) link

fold your hands child you play like a peasant

ken c (ken c), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Do you refuse to fold hands that you know are probably beat but dammit you've got KK and you ain't folding that?

That's part of it (cf. me get AK suited, me get 2p but there's the straight if the caller has a ten, and looky HE GOT TEN, BUT I HAVE BIG SLICK SO ME GO FOR IT) (or me get & raise with QQ, A flops, me bet big and get whacked by jerk playing A4 off). I'm reckless at inopportune times, and play close-to-the-vest when I should open things up.

My favorite moment yesterday = I have TT on the button, raise w/ it, get three callers. Flop & turn reveal 2 flush possibilities but no overcards, but the guys to my left (I'm the button) call my flop bet, and are reraising each other on the turn, so I skedaddle, thinking my TT is beat (because of all the times I've been waxed by a higher PP). They end up AI. One guy was playing Q4 off, the other was playing J7 off, and won w/ a pair of 7s. I got wanged by the flush-chasers soon after.

Which is to say: I'm good enough to get into trouble I should be smart enough to avoid, and when my decentness results in a good read, I get wanged (or, at least, I remember the wangs).

Ken kiss my arp. :)

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:06 (eighteen years ago) link

OK, here's a feel-good story (where I probably made the wrong move):

Tourney situmation. Dealt AK off just before the button. One caller, directly after the BB. I slowplay the sucka. Button calls, SB calls.

Flop comes 5K2 rainbow - happy am I, yes? SB (a large-stacked fellow - 2x what I have right now) bets the minimum. One guy folds. I reraise 4x that. Button folds. SB calls.

Turn reveals a Q; vague flush possibility (think it matched the 2). So, right now, I'm thinking that Slappy McSlappington is playing either Kx or just chasing whatever - I've seen him stick around pots before, which is why his stack's kinda big. He checks to me. I go AI, trying to either scare him off or (hopefully) have him call w/ Kx and is meat. He calls, and turns over 52 off. Dude flopped 2 pair. Of course.

And then a Q comes out on the river, giving me the better 2 pair, and letting me escape w/ my hand covering my ass. I think I lose later on to a pair of Jokers.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:31 (eighteen years ago) link

David, you HAD to fold on that TT hand - it's not even a close call, assuming you put in a decent sized flop bet. So don't beat yourself up about playing perfect poker :)

As for the feelgood hand, yes, I think you marginally made a mistake going all-in as only a hand that beats you will call. Having said that, had you bet the pot and been raised - what then? At least there were no more decisions to make.

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:33 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah - I should've just probed, not pushed in like that. It wasn't a smart move if I had the nuts (as the chances he'd call would be slim), and if I was beat (which I was), he would call. As it stood, he was probably going to reraise any bet I made (given that my flop bet = HELLO I HAVE A KING).

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:40 (eighteen years ago) link

I am gradually excising non-necessary all-ins from my game, but it's tough, especially after a couple of beers and/or bad beats. My lay-downs are getting better too - even though I'm sure I'm throwing away a few winning pots, I'd bet my bottom dollar that I'm avoiding losing a hell of a lot more.

Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:49 (eighteen years ago) link

congrats, markelby!

last night i played in the $50+4 us daily. 400 entrants. i ended up finishing 16th, losing on a hand i probably shouldn't have played. i had about 10,000 chips -- average at the time -- and blinds were up to 500/1000. dude to my right had been going all in every hand for a while, and had moved his stack up to 20,000 as a result. i'm on the big blind, he's on the small blind, and no one else calls. he raises pre-flop to $6000, or over half my stack. i had Q-10 of spades, and after deliberating, i decided to re-raise all-in pre-flop. he calls and shows 9-9. i hit nothing on the flop, turn or river, and i'm out, winning $200. i was so close to folding the hand and living to fight another day, but i was convinced he was just trying to steal my blind. argh. i so wanted that $4000 first place!

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Wednesday, 26 October 2005 12:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Still, pretty impressive! Where was this - a live game? Or do you play online (and if so where)?

I might have done the same - certainly my last two attempts at MTTs, including the big one above, ended for me with marginal decisions rather than big suckouts or obvious mistakes.

In other poker news, London's most famous cardroom, the Gutshot club, may be forced to shut down :(

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 26 October 2005 13:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I've been playing super aggressive lately. SUPER.

bingo (Chris V), Wednesday, 26 October 2005 14:00 (eighteen years ago) link

this was at pokerroom. i haven't been able to play in a live game in two months! (which is good, since i lost $300 the last time i did!)

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Wednesday, 26 October 2005 14:03 (eighteen years ago) link

won 3 single table things in a row now! sweet $150

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 27 October 2005 18:45 (eighteen years ago) link

what's everyone's username again? i'm ygstri

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Thursday, 27 October 2005 19:01 (eighteen years ago) link

on pokerroom? kenjuggle i think

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 27 October 2005 19:16 (eighteen years ago) link

letdown08

bingo (Chris V), Friday, 28 October 2005 08:53 (eighteen years ago) link

juror8, on about 40 different poker rooms.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 28 October 2005 09:05 (eighteen years ago) link

markelby on Pacific, Pokerroom and William Hill.

A friend of mine came 4th in the £10K guaranteed at Hills last night - I watched him until I was practically asleep. £750 isn't bad considering he'd won his ticket in a £6 satellite.

Has anyone here played at ultimatebet? A friend of mine is promoting it aggressively, plus there's a good rakeback programme.

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 28 October 2005 09:14 (eighteen years ago) link

what's rakeback?

ken c (ken c), Friday, 28 October 2005 09:24 (eighteen years ago) link

It's a scheme whereby you sign up with a rakeback provider and between 20 - 30% of the rake you personally pay on your hands is returned to your account. I don't have it on any of mine, annoyingly, but looking at my stats I've paid almost £800 in rake so far in my poker career so getting say £200 back would be pretty cool.

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 28 October 2005 09:41 (eighteen years ago) link


And you can't get it retrospectively - and it's not available for all sites. But if you DO decide to sign up for a new site, make sure you look into its rakeback possibilities first - there are several aggregators of rakeback who you can sign up through. I'd recommend looking at the rakeback forums on flopturnriver.com for advice.

Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 28 October 2005 10:25 (eighteen years ago) link

i've been really good lately with getting the run of the cards and not getting bad beats. i like to think it's a combination of luck and my great risk assessment skills.

ken c (ken c), Friday, 28 October 2005 10:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Update time y'all!

I have won my last 2 (two) SNGs and I am playing in a big scary real-life tourney at a Soho members club tonight (I'm not a member but I have contacts, nowotimean). £30 buyin WITH REBUYS omg, but a very generous prize pool and only roughly 40 players. I am, to be fair, bricking myself, more about the social aspect of it (I'll know no-one and feel like a spare arse among all the hyper-confident coked-up TV producers and f-list celebs), but also because I am highly likely to come out of there £100 worse off than I went in.

Ah well, it's all good fun.

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 15:09 (eighteen years ago) link

I've just recently been getting into real life poker with some friends. The idea of online poker strikes me as rather depressing, somehow - surely it's a far less nuanced game?

chap who would dare to tell uninteresting celeb spotting stories (chap), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 15:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, I guess so - I'd never experienced live poker until recently so, for a while, it was all I knew. You don't get to make plays bbased on physical tells, though there are plenty of betting-related tells that you can still take advantage of - indeed, learning to do this effectively might bring an extra aspect to your live game.

You also naturally miss out on the entire social aspect of poker, although, tbh, I'm currently reading Anthony Holden's Big Deal about the year he spent as a poker pro, and the constant travelling, living out of a suitcase, and grinding $10/$20 limit for 18-hour stints sounds pretty depressing to me too.

Essentially, if you are stimulated by the game itself, then online poker can provide a lot of the best bits of playing combined with other positive attributes - it's much quicker, cheaper, with more choice, versatility, opportunities to put it on pause for an hour or two if you like; you can do other things while playing, you can sit in your pants and chuff whenever you like; and you can multi-table, which again speeds it up and also, if you're a winning player, ups your profit.

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 15:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Online poker possesses a different sort of nuance. A "son of a bitch, these fuckers will chase w/ any suited cards, won't they?; LET MY ROCKETS WIN DAMN YOU" sort of nuance.

Also, what Mark said. I played @ a table @ Foxwoods a month or so ago, and after I got over the initial jitters (OMG REAL PEOPLE!), it was great. Maybe I wouldn't be so woo-hoo about it if I didn't win, but whatever. And I think getting slapped down so often online made me much more aware of what could happen if I'm not careful or ever vigilant.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 15:31 (eighteen years ago) link

I've finally found a weekly live tournament. Last week, there were sixteen people seated at two tables in a kitchen. Good times.

I went out when I drew a straight and got beat by a full house. I basically wagered that Mr. Bluffy McBluff didn't have a pair of fives, but for once, he wasn't bluffing.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link


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