Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

let me know when you post something controversial instead of just braindead

― intheblanks, Saturday, March 25, 2017 4:11 PM

I've been posting about leftist talking points...so...

we're all too caught up in "the inventible spectres of things like Zizek" to grasp your controversial wisdom

Alright Milo, we get it.

These conversations frustrate me. There clearly are troubling tendencies in the moralistic corners of the left but it's impossible to discuss them without playing into the hands of right wingers who want to use divisions in the left to push their own agenda.

Or summoning raccoons from the depths

Yeah, you're beginning to lose me. Lots of us maintain some scepticism towards some cultural appropriation arguments and/or were arguing against Black's letter in this case, and this thread is a place for discussing these issues, but generalized ranting about 'the left' does seem troll-ish.

actually praised by the left for his deep affinity in using gibberish to say nothing.

this explains my affection for New Order. Thanks!

generalized ranting about 'the left' does seem troll-ish.

Well, raccoons like to talk about the left as a homogenous bloc. This way they can pick stray examples of some activist tactic or another and use it to smear the entire tradition of progressivism.

Two years older but, alas, not two years wiser.

Though obviously emboldened enough by the prevailing political climate to be more upfront about his beliefs.

https://twitter.com/somuch4theleft?lang=en

ime conservatives such as orientmammal (who is the latest avatar of raccoon tanuki obviously), who arrive with the sole intention of engaging in polemics and beating on "the liberals" like a rug, tend not to engage in conversation with those who respond to them, so much as take up a position they consider unassailable and proceed to vigorously rebut such arguments as they believe the opponents always make and for which they have their weapons sharpened.

The difficulty is that their idea of their opponents' arguments has been formed by the caricature of these arguments that appears in conservative venues, not by anything that has been written by the people they are supposedly conversing with. silby basically did the same thing, anticipating the penny that hadn't dropped yet and jumping ahead to the endgame without letting it all play out.

but it's obvious this is raccoon tanuki and he was permabanned for previous grievous offenses. we don't have to get to know him. we already know him well and have banned him.

I say let him apologize for those offenses right now, then let him prove he can play nicely on ilx, or else he can go shit in someone else's sandbox.

what say, raccoon? you wanna show a bit of well-merited contrition or get the boot?

ITS NOT NEITHER I INTEND TOO ITS HUMAN NATURE THE MOST COMMON REPLY ARE THE ONES I SAID AS ITS IN HUMAN PHYCOLIGY THAT WHEN SOMEONE SEE SOMEONE TROLLING THEY ASK THEM TO LEAVE IN MOST CASES MEMBERS ADMINS AND MODS USUALLY TRY THIS STEP FIRST TO SEE HOW HARD THE TROLL IS WHEN THAT DOES NOT WORK ADMINS AND MODS DO SUSPEND PEOPLE OR MEMBERS KNOW THAT THIS PERSON IS A GOOD TROLL AND THAT THEY CAN HAVE FUN WITH HIM HE WONT MIND IF THEY SAY HIM BAD THINGS OR INSULT HIM, SO THATS THE FIRST STEP IN MOST CASES

If I may be provocative: To what extent would you agree with the assertion that the language of "white privilege" is the language of the striving classes in the west at the current moment? Do white strivers feel pressure to demonstrate that they are "one of the good ones?" Would disagreeing with "white privilege" and "intersectional" arguments tend to enhance or inhibit one's career? one's social standing?

The way I answer these questions, tbh, I don't really think white people are even really on top in the west anymore. It's like watching the scenes in the Happening when people start killing themselves. Are they really doing all of this of their own volition? Who's behind the methods of social control that are doing this to the white striving classes?

Reptilians? Jews? the Anunnaki?

tbh, I don't really think white people are even really on top in the west anymore.

citation needed.

Look at a list of the 10 largest economies and a list of the 300 largest corporations in the west . I think you'll find that the vast majority from each list have 'white' presidents, CEO's, or prime ministers. Would you contend that these leaders are secretly controlled by non-whites? If so, how is this not just pure conspiracy theory territory?

Sorry for disrupting the thread, but can I rant about my own shitty things for a sec? I've been spending the last three days digging into the violent misogyny, PUAHate-rethoric and just straight up bat-shit ideology of a guy, after the most well-renowned FilmMagazine in Denmark gave him space for an article about gender-issues in the Danish film business, calling him a 'researcher' and not digging any further into his background. That article spread throughout all the media - one radio-station even had it in advance, and called a bunch of mostly feminists to defend themselves - without anybody doing just the basic research into who the fuck this guy was. I honestly feel as if the next time someone says 'sunlight is the best disinfectant' to me in person, I'll lose it. Fuck this stupid bullshit with bringing dangerous people into the media spotlight, and then rely on that if they're insane, some random dude would probably find out. Do your job, lazy media assholes. And that goes for Bill Maher as well.

There's great career opportunities in billing yourself as the resistance to white privilege and intersectionality, in the arts, in political punditry, in academia and of course on YouTube. If we're talking outside of that, I'd wager the best course of action for a careerist (now as always) would be to not say too much either way.

Look at a list of the 10 largest economies and a list of the 300 largest corporations in the west . I think you'll find that the vast majority from each list have 'white' presidents, CEO's, or prime ministers. Would you contend that these leaders are secretly controlled by non-whites? If so, how is this not just pure conspiracy theory territory?

Which makes it all the more fascinating really. Why is their this deep division between the "white working classes*" and the white striving classes? Who even bothers to produce media for the white working class, outside of, say, Breitbart? The New York Times for example discusses these people as if they are a foreign population subject to anthropological study, trying to come up with explanations for why they do what they do (such as vote Trump). Why would these people in turn, read the New York Times and view it as an institution that represents them when their articles and opinion columns are written from a point of view of condescension if not outright disdain? Even in sports media, it is very difficult to find "takes" that cater to the sensibility of these people. My point is not that their views are right substantively, but I find it bizarre that they aren't represented at all!

But yeah, that "white people" are doing it to themselves is the most plausible explanation, but I do enjoy conspiracy theories.

Has the media establishment ever written for or identified itself with the working class, white or otherwise?

*I also meant to add that I don't really like the term "white working class" but I'll use it for now out of laziness.

gotta admire tanook's cunning, he knew this was the ilx thread where he'd get the most receptive hearing

xpost

Certainly prior to World War II they were considered working class. I'm not sure exactly when the shift occurred. Probably gradually.

Who even bothers to produce media for the white working class, outside of, say, Breitbart?

Says the man who has never stood in a grocery check-out line and looked at the racks of printed media displayed there.

btw, why should we suppose the "white working class" has any different interests than the "working class" generally, and if they do have different interests, why would it be a good thing to cater to those particular interests, rather than trying to address the interests of the "working class" generally without reference to color?

i think that elite disdain of the working classes -- white or black or otherwise -- is a serious force in our society. breitbart disdains the white working class so much they try to convince them that the people holding them back are muslims, feminists, and undocumented immigrants, and not the republican politicians breitbart convinces them to vote for. the populist thing, after all, turned out to be a ruse -- look at who trump appointed to his cabinet! look at the sadistic bill he tried to get through congress!

Even in sports media, it is very difficult to find "takes" that cater to the sensibility of these people. My point is not that their views are right substantively, but I find it bizarre that they aren't represented at all!
.

This is the dumbest (non-Trump quote) thing I have read in a long time and that's saying a lot

i would like to hear an example of a hypothetically non-existent "take" in sports media catering to the sensibility of the white working class

I'm very proud of ILX for once again having what was turning into an edifying, interesting and one might even say enlightening conversation turned into a fucking Bill Maher panel by an obvious troll sock. Jesus fucking Christ you people.

Is Breitbart writing for the working class? I honestly don't know but I do feel like there's a pretty bad impulse rn to assume that because people voted Trump in, that means they're all in for everything that's glommed on to him - be it Milo or Pepe or GamerGate or whatever.

the anthropological studies of "angry working class whites" are totally dehumanizing, as are all the people saying it's "hard" for them to "sympathize" with the plight of Trump voters. it's not so different than the war on black people the GOP has been waging for decades with the approval and cooperation of the Democratic party. this regime, too, was bolstered by damaging stereotypes about black criminality, reinforced in the media in shows like COPS and news stories about the "knockout game" and other urban legends. a million examples. maybe the worst was donald trump's advertisement advocating for the death penalty for black teenagers.

use your head, peacock. the elite classes in American society find excuses not to care about communities they have no use for. this isn't about the "white" working class -- it's about more white people joining the ranks of the disdained as their skills don't meet the needs of the labor market. they are not "worse off" than minorities. they are however finding themselves in a similar predicament, that is, they're becoming the "other." they need to make common cause with the working people of other ethnic groups to fight for an economy that works for everybody.

Yeah, this argument about media makes no sense to me at all. Who do you seriously think most mainstream American media caters to?

<10% of the population obviously, that's how they make money, duh

Also, can we restrict arguments about the Cathedral to the alt-right thread or something?

It might be interesting to dissect this supposed elite disdain for the "white working class" (NB, I think this is all at least 80% confirmation bias by self-appointed members of said WWC and their champions, who of course do exactly the same shit they accuse "effete lefties" of doing wrt every other minority they don't belong to):

1. true blue preppies and rich folks, who have only encountered the WWC in service contexts and in occasional interactions with "townies"
2. upwardly mobile former members of the WWC who are intimately familiar with their ways and have worked very hard to differentiate themselves
3. Non-W working class, who are presumably extremely intimate with being hated by WWC members but probably don't know or care why that is

I think know #1 is probably where the NYT sympathy stories and anthropology-in-the-hope-of-absolution crap comes from.
Meanwhile those of us in #2 read those pieces about Trump voters and reflexively eye-puke fire-blood because OH FUCK YOU UNCLE FRANK, YOU DUMB HATEFUL SHIT
I can't speak for #3 but I suspect most of its membership looks at all of the above and thinks we're all fucking crazy.

btw, why should we suppose the "white working class" has any different interests than the "working class" generally, and if they do have different interests, why would it be a good thing to cater to those particular interests, rather than trying to address the interests of the "working class" generally without reference to color?

Indeed why should they? But then perhaps it's the very language of the elite that creates that division?

the elite classes in American society find excuses not to care about communities they have no use for.

I agree that the elite find excuses to disdain the non-elite. This is the fundamental problem we wrestle with when trying to structure a society that improves on Democracy.

i would like to hear an example of a hypothetically non-existent "take" in sports media catering to the sensibility of the white working class

See, Colin Kaepernick. Though Trent Dilfer did sort of tepidly dip his toe in there.

This is the dumbest (non-Trump quote) thing I have read in a long time and that's saying a lot

I've noticed that you sputter with anger quite often, but I've never actually seen you ever refute anything. Are you sure you're as smart as you think you are?

Peacock and Daniel_Rf are also both raccoon tanuki im pretty sure

Indeed why should they? But then perhaps it's the very language of the elite that creates that division?

yeah, especially the language of the right wing elites, especially the republicans, who at least since nixon have leveraged the politics of backlash to support a sadistic pro-corporate agenda

Can we get some more dudes in here who capitalize Democracy

2. upwardly mobile former members of the WWC who are intimately familiar with their ways and have worked very hard to differentiate themselves

This illustrates exactly what I'm talking about with the white striving classes. Congrats! You are one of "the good ones" that hates your own people. Nothing pathological there.

What kind of solace does it provide you to believe that I'm raccoon tanuki?

I couldn't possibly care less who you are, question mark man

Treeship, I agree with much of what you say with respect to the elite dividing the working classes against each other. But I would suggest that corporate-minded "liberals" accomplish much the same division, even with their "good intentions." I don't want to re-litigate the Democratic primaries though.

then there is no place for you on ilx

Peacock, he makes you think. Of course, he doesn't oblige himself to directly address any point you make in response to his questions, but he asks such deep questions that one feels one must answer even if you are talking to the equivalent of a weight and fortune machine.

btw, did this Peacock person ever appear anywhere on ilx before orientalmammal quickly appeared and then as magically disappeared?

haha silby I think this racoon guy is the pits and disagree with 100% of what he's said on this thread at least but as a super longtime lurker who's just spontaneously decided to post again I guess I can see how my timing might be suspicious.

yeah, but you act and talk like someone who wants to engage, not someone who wants to provoke.

You are one of "the good ones" that hates your own people.

ok. that's straying into alt-right shit-posting territory. fp'd you for that.

I would suggest that corporate-minded "liberals" accomplish much the same division, even with their "good intentions."

liberals have been along for the ride for decades but it is right wing ideology that blames people for their failure to adapt to the global market. it is conservatives who think that the mass poverty in our country is due to a failure on the part of the poor, not society in general. no liberal would have written these lines, from kevin williamson of the national review:

Nothing happened to them. There wasn’t some awful disaster. There wasn’t a war or a famine or a plague or a foreign occupation. Even the economic changes of the past few decades do very little to explain the dysfunction and negligence — and the incomprehensible malice — of poor white America.... The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die. Economically, they are negative assets. Morally, they are indefensible.

liberals buy into versions of this but they picked it up from the right. the plight of white america has nothing do with some liberal antipathy toward white people, it has to do with a general failure, on the part of society, to take working class concerns seriously. the people who voted for trump because they thought he'd re-open the coal mine need to stop thinking of themselves as white people and start thinking of themselves as people in general -- people whose interests are at odds with those of the ruling class. people whose interests are shared by many minority groups who disproportionally find themselves in a similar economic predicament.

These are the optics being debated upthread?

https://twitter.com/almostjingo/status/827009436749164544
https://twitter.com/janeygak/status/826998516144697344
https://twitter.com/hunterswogg/status/827018838755667968

― Peacock, Friday, 3 February 2017 03:05 (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

did peacock register just to post that

― global tetrahedron, Friday, 3 February 2017 03:42 (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Aimless, I'm sorry I didn't address you more directly, but I never asserted that the interests of the White working class diverged from the interests of POC working class. I only made the distinction in order to make the distinction with the white striving classes and the noted divergence in sensibilities. And I only refer to the white striving classes to the extent they differ at all from the striving classes in general. Non-elite poc and WWC have long had to demonstrate that they fit in with the sensibilities of the ruling classes in order to move up the ladder. Treeship makes good points about the elite trying to justify their positions in society, and having "bien pensant" opinions now appears to be a part of that, down to what are in fact numerically disputed opinions concerning white privilege and intersectional jargon.

Can you tell what it is yit

ok. that's straying into alt-right shit-posting territory. fp'd you for that.

How so? My entire contention is that in a stunning historical reversal it is in fact the burden of striving whites to demonstrate appropriate attitudes. I've been descriptive not prescriptive on this point.