Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

He's actually worse than he was last time because then, at first, he made some sort of pretence at being a liberal sort of fellow with the occasional wacky idea and the racism, anti-Semitism, etc, took a while to manifest itself.

There is no issue of "dominant culture" it's just again this leftist thing of speaking on behalf of people who don't want and didn't ask you to speak for them.

...Also, a fact: American Nigerians, Ghanaians, and Asians have a higher average income than white Americans. Where's the so called "systemic" oppression 'of color' there?

― orientmammal, Friday, March 24, 2017 10:11-10:14 AM (yesterday)

it's not fair or constructive to label this "racist filth". but nor are the raccoon's arguments so innocent as it insists. in reducing lib-left antiracism to unwanted meddling in the affairs of others, om casts social politics as the doings of white people. and the success of a few cherry-picked demographic groups says nothing about the existence institutional racism. smugly parading this dopey non-sequitur like it's some great "gotcha!" takedown of progressive antiracism suggests a deep and thoughtless hostility to such arguments. which does raise a few red flags...

Progressive Antiracism (TM) is a discrete ideology rooted in certain ideas about how privilege operates and the relationship between language and power and trauma and a bunch of stuff like that.. As a kind of tendency on the left it is opposed by many people who aren't racists, people like Mark Lilla on the liberal side of things and Adolph Reed on the radical Marxist end of things. Raccoon Tanuki might be a guy like this idk. It isn't clear he is on the verge of white nationalism so far, but then again I don't remember his posts from the old days.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-lefts-attack-on-color-blindness-goes-too-far/403477/

I think this article makes some good points about how the impetus to make people reflect on their "privilege" -- like by saying they shouldn't speak on certain topics -- is likely to backfire, and that a better approach to reversing inequality might be to focus on the needs of people who are worse off in society, who suffer from racism, rather than on the correct thought and behavior of people who are lucky enough to not face these challenges.

If we're taking om seriously as more than just a troll, then I feel that Shakespeare's playing female characters as an example of positive appropriation deserves to be savoured.

Like, hostility toward minorities = obviously bad. Hackneyed but well-intentioned attempt to grapple with the tragic legacy of Emmet Till in a surrealist oil painting = maybe not rscist, or on a continuum with racism, or necessarily related to a colonial legacy of exploitation.

I don't remember his posts from the old days.

His attempts at schooling Mordy on Judaism were especially noteworthy.

Orientmammal has not said racist filth and is not fp worthy

Ffs take a chill pill

Not u tom d

Still not sure how people know who this person's other socks were

If we're taking om seriously as more than just a troll, then I feel that Shakespeare's playing female characters as an example of positive appropriation deserves to be savoured.

Right, I mean, some of the most enduring songs in American popular music history, and arguably, the origin of a national American popular music culture itself, come from the era of blackface minstrelsy. That doesn't mean that there were no problems with the practice.

Progressive Antiracism (TM) is a discrete ideology rooted in certain ideas about how privilege operates and the relationship between language and power and trauma and a bunch of stuff like that.. As a kind of tendency on the left it is opposed by many people who aren't racists...

― Treeship, Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:37 AM (forty-four minutes ago)

okay, but that doesn't in any way justify rt's shitty, thoughtless, bad faith arguments

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play.

They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

Alternatively we should examine exactly how serious internet arguments are

When it comes to the writing credits on Charli XCX songs, well, I don't think I need tell you how serious an issue that is.

Top 3 median income in USA

By ancestry
1.Indian American : $101,591
2.Taiwanese American : $85,566
3.Filipino American : $82,389

Dominant oppressive 'white' culture? I think the people who say these things really haven't had any experience of white Americans outside the privileged affluent white America they themselves are from.

― orientmammal, Friday, 24 March 2017 20:25 (yesterday) Permalink

smdh at anyone posting half-hearted apologia for this guy and conveniently ignoring this post

I do actually believe the new left are destroying the intellectual space. Controversial things should be discussed, not shunned. And, Intellectucal leftism has led to the inventible spectres of things like Zizek, actually praised by the left for his deep affinity in using gibberish to say nothing. People's minds are being closed to important ideas thanks to the extreme lefts takoever of university life in the humanities. My questioning of the economic realities of groups earlier is a reaction to the left's narrative of social order, not to the trivial issue of race like some seem to be taking it.

http://www.weirduniverse.net/images/uploads/tanuki019_thumb.jpg

Controversial things should be discussed

let me know when you post something controversial instead of just braindead

My questioning of the economic realities of groups earlier is a reaction to the left's narrative of social order

i, for one, welcome our new ghanaian overlords

let me know when you post something controversial instead of just braindead

― intheblanks, Saturday, March 25, 2017 4:11 PM

I've been posting about leftist talking points...so...

we're all too caught up in "the inventible spectres of things like Zizek" to grasp your controversial wisdom

Alright Milo, we get it.

These conversations frustrate me. There clearly are troubling tendencies in the moralistic corners of the left but it's impossible to discuss them without playing into the hands of right wingers who want to use divisions in the left to push their own agenda.

Or summoning raccoons from the depths

Yeah, you're beginning to lose me. Lots of us maintain some scepticism towards some cultural appropriation arguments and/or were arguing against Black's letter in this case, and this thread is a place for discussing these issues, but generalized ranting about 'the left' does seem troll-ish.

actually praised by the left for his deep affinity in using gibberish to say nothing.

this explains my affection for New Order. Thanks!

generalized ranting about 'the left' does seem troll-ish.

Well, raccoons like to talk about the left as a homogenous bloc. This way they can pick stray examples of some activist tactic or another and use it to smear the entire tradition of progressivism.

Two years older but, alas, not two years wiser.

Though obviously emboldened enough by the prevailing political climate to be more upfront about his beliefs.

https://twitter.com/somuch4theleft?lang=en

ime conservatives such as orientmammal (who is the latest avatar of raccoon tanuki obviously), who arrive with the sole intention of engaging in polemics and beating on "the liberals" like a rug, tend not to engage in conversation with those who respond to them, so much as take up a position they consider unassailable and proceed to vigorously rebut such arguments as they believe the opponents always make and for which they have their weapons sharpened.

The difficulty is that their idea of their opponents' arguments has been formed by the caricature of these arguments that appears in conservative venues, not by anything that has been written by the people they are supposedly conversing with. silby basically did the same thing, anticipating the penny that hadn't dropped yet and jumping ahead to the endgame without letting it all play out.

but it's obvious this is raccoon tanuki and he was permabanned for previous grievous offenses. we don't have to get to know him. we already know him well and have banned him.

I say let him apologize for those offenses right now, then let him prove he can play nicely on ilx, or else he can go shit in someone else's sandbox.

what say, raccoon? you wanna show a bit of well-merited contrition or get the boot?

ITS NOT NEITHER I INTEND TOO ITS HUMAN NATURE THE MOST COMMON REPLY ARE THE ONES I SAID AS ITS IN HUMAN PHYCOLIGY THAT WHEN SOMEONE SEE SOMEONE TROLLING THEY ASK THEM TO LEAVE IN MOST CASES MEMBERS ADMINS AND MODS USUALLY TRY THIS STEP FIRST TO SEE HOW HARD THE TROLL IS WHEN THAT DOES NOT WORK ADMINS AND MODS DO SUSPEND PEOPLE OR MEMBERS KNOW THAT THIS PERSON IS A GOOD TROLL AND THAT THEY CAN HAVE FUN WITH HIM HE WONT MIND IF THEY SAY HIM BAD THINGS OR INSULT HIM, SO THATS THE FIRST STEP IN MOST CASES

If I may be provocative: To what extent would you agree with the assertion that the language of "white privilege" is the language of the striving classes in the west at the current moment? Do white strivers feel pressure to demonstrate that they are "one of the good ones?" Would disagreeing with "white privilege" and "intersectional" arguments tend to enhance or inhibit one's career? one's social standing?

The way I answer these questions, tbh, I don't really think white people are even really on top in the west anymore. It's like watching the scenes in the Happening when people start killing themselves. Are they really doing all of this of their own volition? Who's behind the methods of social control that are doing this to the white striving classes?

Reptilians? Jews? the Anunnaki?

tbh, I don't really think white people are even really on top in the west anymore.

citation needed.

Look at a list of the 10 largest economies and a list of the 300 largest corporations in the west . I think you'll find that the vast majority from each list have 'white' presidents, CEO's, or prime ministers. Would you contend that these leaders are secretly controlled by non-whites? If so, how is this not just pure conspiracy theory territory?

Sorry for disrupting the thread, but can I rant about my own shitty things for a sec? I've been spending the last three days digging into the violent misogyny, PUAHate-rethoric and just straight up bat-shit ideology of a guy, after the most well-renowned FilmMagazine in Denmark gave him space for an article about gender-issues in the Danish film business, calling him a 'researcher' and not digging any further into his background. That article spread throughout all the media - one radio-station even had it in advance, and called a bunch of mostly feminists to defend themselves - without anybody doing just the basic research into who the fuck this guy was. I honestly feel as if the next time someone says 'sunlight is the best disinfectant' to me in person, I'll lose it. Fuck this stupid bullshit with bringing dangerous people into the media spotlight, and then rely on that if they're insane, some random dude would probably find out. Do your job, lazy media assholes. And that goes for Bill Maher as well.

There's great career opportunities in billing yourself as the resistance to white privilege and intersectionality, in the arts, in political punditry, in academia and of course on YouTube. If we're talking outside of that, I'd wager the best course of action for a careerist (now as always) would be to not say too much either way.

Look at a list of the 10 largest economies and a list of the 300 largest corporations in the west . I think you'll find that the vast majority from each list have 'white' presidents, CEO's, or prime ministers. Would you contend that these leaders are secretly controlled by non-whites? If so, how is this not just pure conspiracy theory territory?

Which makes it all the more fascinating really. Why is their this deep division between the "white working classes*" and the white striving classes? Who even bothers to produce media for the white working class, outside of, say, Breitbart? The New York Times for example discusses these people as if they are a foreign population subject to anthropological study, trying to come up with explanations for why they do what they do (such as vote Trump). Why would these people in turn, read the New York Times and view it as an institution that represents them when their articles and opinion columns are written from a point of view of condescension if not outright disdain? Even in sports media, it is very difficult to find "takes" that cater to the sensibility of these people. My point is not that their views are right substantively, but I find it bizarre that they aren't represented at all!

But yeah, that "white people" are doing it to themselves is the most plausible explanation, but I do enjoy conspiracy theories.

Has the media establishment ever written for or identified itself with the working class, white or otherwise?

*I also meant to add that I don't really like the term "white working class" but I'll use it for now out of laziness.

gotta admire tanook's cunning, he knew this was the ilx thread where he'd get the most receptive hearing

xpost

Certainly prior to World War II they were considered working class. I'm not sure exactly when the shift occurred. Probably gradually.

Who even bothers to produce media for the white working class, outside of, say, Breitbart?

Says the man who has never stood in a grocery check-out line and looked at the racks of printed media displayed there.

btw, why should we suppose the "white working class" has any different interests than the "working class" generally, and if they do have different interests, why would it be a good thing to cater to those particular interests, rather than trying to address the interests of the "working class" generally without reference to color?

i think that elite disdain of the working classes -- white or black or otherwise -- is a serious force in our society. breitbart disdains the white working class so much they try to convince them that the people holding them back are muslims, feminists, and undocumented immigrants, and not the republican politicians breitbart convinces them to vote for. the populist thing, after all, turned out to be a ruse -- look at who trump appointed to his cabinet! look at the sadistic bill he tried to get through congress!

Even in sports media, it is very difficult to find "takes" that cater to the sensibility of these people. My point is not that their views are right substantively, but I find it bizarre that they aren't represented at all!
.

This is the dumbest (non-Trump quote) thing I have read in a long time and that's saying a lot

i would like to hear an example of a hypothetically non-existent "take" in sports media catering to the sensibility of the white working class

I'm very proud of ILX for once again having what was turning into an edifying, interesting and one might even say enlightening conversation turned into a fucking Bill Maher panel by an obvious troll sock. Jesus fucking Christ you people.

Is Breitbart writing for the working class? I honestly don't know but I do feel like there's a pretty bad impulse rn to assume that because people voted Trump in, that means they're all in for everything that's glommed on to him - be it Milo or Pepe or GamerGate or whatever.

the anthropological studies of "angry working class whites" are totally dehumanizing, as are all the people saying it's "hard" for them to "sympathize" with the plight of Trump voters. it's not so different than the war on black people the GOP has been waging for decades with the approval and cooperation of the Democratic party. this regime, too, was bolstered by damaging stereotypes about black criminality, reinforced in the media in shows like COPS and news stories about the "knockout game" and other urban legends. a million examples. maybe the worst was donald trump's advertisement advocating for the death penalty for black teenagers.

use your head, peacock. the elite classes in American society find excuses not to care about communities they have no use for. this isn't about the "white" working class -- it's about more white people joining the ranks of the disdained as their skills don't meet the needs of the labor market. they are not "worse off" than minorities. they are however finding themselves in a similar predicament, that is, they're becoming the "other." they need to make common cause with the working people of other ethnic groups to fight for an economy that works for everybody.

Yeah, this argument about media makes no sense to me at all. Who do you seriously think most mainstream American media caters to?

<10% of the population obviously, that's how they make money, duh