fourth world music

xp oops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE0bvwfy8vA

A few things that might belong or have been influenced by -

Roberto Musci ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPoHYDkopzY

A lot of his stuff uses recordings (i.e. not just sounds) of music from non-western cultures.

Find Africae

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeZrW8QUWqg

Maybe not their most 'Fourth World' moment, but not much on YouTube.

SPK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IYmNLOJ8B4

Fake gamelan from industrial types. The studio version if v.nice.

"I wanted the mental and geographical landscapes to be more indeterminate- not Indonesia, not Africa, not this or that…something that COULD HAVE existed if things were in an imaginary culture, growing up in an imaginary place with this imaginary music. I called it 'coffee-coloured classical music of the future'. What would music be like if 'classic' had not been defined as what happened in Central Europe two hundred years ago? What if the world knew Javanese music and Pygmy music and Aborigine music? What would 'classical music' sound like then?"

lol white people

LOL "the world"

Ooh yes, this feels timely.

At its best, fourth-world music does feel like a more honest attempt to process the influence of non-Western musical ideas in a way that (as far as possible) respectfully takes into account their original context, vs overdubbing some funky African drums because it sounds exotic.

But dear god, the language used to describe this is a minefield. Hassell's music is wonderful, but when he starts describing it ("coffee-coloured") I want to slam the laptop lid down. (And he's not moved it on - went to a talk in London by him last year where his big new theory is how the north and south of the equator maps to the north and south of the body - up north it's all brain and intellect, down south it's all sex. Er, right.)

The idea makes sense when listening to JH's music, he just really shouldn't talk about it. Basically the music is far less problematic than his descriptors.

Also, the term is bandied around a lot lately to describe stuff at the ironic/not-ironic vaporwave end of the spectrum that fits much more closely into the "world music" bracket. I'll happily admit that I like a lot of Pure Moods stuff, but that it's also problematic. I wonder if the latter-day vogue for calling things fourth-world buys respectability for music that's a lot less considered than Hassell etc.

But dear god, the language used to describe this is a minefield. Hassell's music is wonderful, but when he starts describing it ("coffee-coloured") I want to slam the laptop lid dow

yes agreed ... I have this album and I love it but the less I hear these two pseuds talk about their intentions the better

Also, the term is bandied around a lot lately to describe stuff at the ironic/not-ironic vaporwave end of the spectrum that fits much more closely into the "world music" bracket.

can you recommend some stuff that fits this description? i like vaporwave and i like "world music" but i'm not sure i've ever encountered a hybrid. (i'm listening to the eno album now and it's definitely not what i expected and i can definitely see how vaporwave might've incorporated this kind of sound into their music -- it's def not like what my google research indicates i.e. just a synonym for "world music.")

can you recommend some stuff that fits this description? i like vaporwave and i like "world music" but i'm not sure i've ever encountered a hybrid. (i'm listening to the eno album now and it's definitely not what i expected and i can definitely see how vaporwave might've incorporated this kind of sound into their music -- it's def not like what my google research indicates i.e. just a synonym for "world music.")

The example that springs to mind quickest is perhaps the new Tornado Wallace album? Which I like a lot. I think there's a depth of purpose to it but the pastichey use of hoary old Fairlight panflute is a bit of a tell. (Not that I've hear TW use the term fourth world, but I think other people have applied it.)

yes agreed ... I have this album and I love it but the less I hear these two pseuds talk about their intentions the better

Not least because the music does represent (to my ears) a fairly unproblematic example of how cultural cross-pollination can be respectfully achieve. JH undoubtedly put the legwork in (studying raga for years and developing new trumpet-playing techniques based on his findings), he didn't just hit up the sampler and some field recordings.

Tl;dr he's a terrible ambassador for his own ideas.

Thinking about this a lot this week. Reason is Glitterbeat (Noura Mint Seymali, Tamikrest...) sent me promos from their new sublabel 'tak:til', describing the philosophy as:

"The concept behind tak:til is to create a highly selective label imprint that specializes in contemporary (mostly) instrumental music. At least to begin with, the sound of tak:til will at times echo
rhythms and textures that could be found on Glitterbeat releases. We are interested in albums that loosely navigate Jon Hassell's idea of "Fourth World" musics, musics that blur the divide between (so-called) futurists and (so-called) traditionalists."

For the the first two releases (Joshua Abrams & Natural Information Society's Simultonality and 75 Dollar Bill reissue of WMPPRR) I indeed hear some relation to JH's definition.

and yes, had the chance to play Simultonality's great song 'Ophiuchus' on the radio last Friday: https://www.mixcloud.com/Sterrenplaten/sterrenplaten-17-maart-2017/

lol white people

― the late great, Monday, March 20, 2017 2:43 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One of the most infuriating aspects of this shitty meme is how Anglo-American it is, as if being white automatically meant 'hurr durr colonialism, slavery, Orientalism, etc.' How do the so-called 'Balkans' fit into your narrative? Or the Baltic countries? Is Bulgaria a paragon of white privilege?

Gonna be writing about that Simultonality record for Stereogum in about a month, as part of my jazz column.

Wondering where Can's "Ethnological Forgery Series" songs fit into this.

Czukay's 'Boat Woman Song' more so, I'd say.

pomenitul you are a shitty poster and should quit the board

One of the most infuriating aspects of this shitty meme is how Anglo-American it is, as if being white automatically meant 'hurr durr colonialism, slavery, Orientalism, etc.' How do the so-called 'Balkans' fit into your narrative? Or the Baltic countries? Is Bulgaria a paragon of white privilege?

your application to include all Caucasians in the category of 'white ppl' has been denied. the term will continue to apply to anglos and other continental whites up to about Poland where things start to get murky.

That's true in a highly specialized sense, but an Ukrainian in, say, Sub-Saharan Africa is still considered 'white.' A more precise term when discussing these matters would be useful.

A couple good contemporary examples of 4th world vapowave are Visible Cloaks 'Reassemblage' and Ramzi 'Phobiza Vol. 2'.

The example that springs to mind quickest is perhaps the new Tornado Wallace album?

this is wonderful btw i'd be happy to hear anything else you think is like it

uhhhhhh nu balearic, anyone?

there's a cool old ILM thread about 80s "global village syncrenticism"...

the georgia album 'all kind music' is kinda fourth world vaporwave, but the beats are a whole lot more discombobulated than tornado wallace. i don't love the whole record but the song 'time feel' is fantastic (but alas not on youtube). this one's okay too though:

https://youtu.be/ZhYSu-61ED4

cool that roberto musci was the first other guy mentioned on this thread, that comp on music from memory is so good

also thanks to bamboohouses for your posts, you articulated some of my discomfort very neatly

on the more minimal electronic side of things...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OARKq4DObs

craig leon - nommo
(video is from 'holy mountain' so nsfw)

oh fuck, sorry for boobs

btw i found an amazing and possibly exhaustive rym fourth world list:
https://rateyourmusic.com/list/mkrasna/fourth_world_music/

What a great find. Thanks!

That's true in a highly specialized sense, but an Ukrainian in, say, Sub-Saharan Africa is still considered 'white.' A more precise term when discussing these matters would be useful.

― pomenitul, Monday, March 20, 2017 12:54 PM (fifty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my father, a dark skinned, brown eyed, and black haired south american, was greeted in malawi by a crowd of children gleefully shouting the same word at him. his colleague informed him they were shouting "white man". so I'm not really sure considered white in sub-saharan africa is a good way to measure whiteness

The Wolf Muller & Cass album from last year is probably a more total examination of the "Balearic as Fourth World" concept than Tornado Wallace is, at least if we basically mean "sounds like someone's been taking cues from Jon Hassell or David Sylvian's 'Words with the Shaman'."

Actually the more interesting TW axis was a couple of years ago when that whole Australian house scene sounded like it was trying to update Yothu Yindi's "Treaty" by way of Jungle Wonz and "Voodoo stay" (see: TW's "Circadia", Coober Pedy University Band's "Kookaburra" etc.).

"Voodoo Ray", rather.

Also check the new Jonny Nash album people!

aye, that Johnny Nash album is ace

my father, a dark skinned, brown eyed, and black haired south american, was greeted in malawi by a crowd of children gleefully shouting the same word at him. his colleague informed him they were shouting "white man". so I'm not really sure considered white in sub-saharan africa is a good way to measure whiteness

― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Monday, March 20, 2017 5:13 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Although the term mzungu is most often used to describe white people (no doubt for historical reasons), it literally means 'aimless wanderer.' As far as I can tell, it's not a direct reference to skin colour.

Here's the hypothetical case-scenario I had in mind: a working class Moldovan man arrives in South Africa, where he is likely to be deemed 'privileged' by some observers due to the lightness of his skin, even though the Republic of Moldova is not a model of wealth and influence by any stretch of the imagination. In this instance, the assumption *is* based on skin colour, and may in fact unfairly work to the man's advantage.

Anyway, my point is that 'whiteness' is a simplistic category, even when it's used to denounce Hassell's glaringly Orientalist statements and the like. Saying stuff like 'lol white people' doesn't help anyone.

excellent point

/The example that springs to mind quickest is perhaps the new Tornado Wallace album? /

this is wonderful btw i'd be happy to hear anything else you think is like it

Some CFCF records are in this ballpark. Not the most recent stuff which is more Balearic, but Outside and Colours of Life might float your boat? Again, on the lightly vaporwave/world end of things rather than fourth-world.

Big hell yes to Roberto Musci upthread. And I think Visible Cloaks might be the canonical 2017 example.

I think some of the Steve Roach tribal LPs nod in that direction, definitely the Fever Dreams trilogy.

Some of Haruomi Hosono's more exploratory solo stuff fits the bill, right? He referred to a few of those records as "sight seeing music". Particular the Monad albums and stuff around that time. (Sakamoto's Neo Geo period is a much blunter instrument).

synthesized mallet instruments

just remebered i have the reissue of midori takada's 'through the looking glass' on order - if you like beautiful fourth world-leaning ambient music and nature sounds, this truly is the shit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWGjYg2LmZQ

<3<3<3<3

damn when i was about 22 i made a bunch of generative wind chime sounding pieces with gamelan frequencies, i could've been buds with brian eno :c

coulda shoulda buddha

this is one of the more thread appropriate tracks off music from memory's brazilian electronic music comp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0k8sqxK-Y

Fernando Falcão - Amanhecer Tabajara

could really use a copy of this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e3yc2jvSA8

Markus Stockhausen & Jasper Van't Hof ‎– Aqua Sansa

Sounds promising.

o nice

That David Cunningham track is choice

anyway to respond to nick's post:

how might it differ from regular 'world music'?

what about how it differs from 'exotica'? a futurist bent and bigger, more 'cosmic' concepts and feelings.. contrast with martin denny etc whose records were indeed played to evoke being out in nature amongst wildlife, but they had a smaller and more intimate scope in terms of the atmosphere, they had cozy feelings. a lot of fourth world stuff seems be less about cozy chillness and more about vastness and wonder. i haven't listened to a ton of this stuff, though, probably talkin crap.

This article about the sound of a loon in Balearic house was in Pitchfork a while back, but was linked to in a review of a compilation of italo-house. I thought it would fit this thread pretty well: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/474-anaconda-pacific-state-sueno-latino-and-the-story-of-a-sample-that-keeps-coming-back/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9PYhLXG8-Y

This came up on a shuffle earlier and made me very happy for 11 minutes.

It is a lot better than anything Rousseau ever painted imo.

I might include the first Latin Playboys album as akin to the idea of "forth world.'

i feel like i'd slot in Fatima Al Qadiri's Asiatisch in here, even though its influences are more in the post-Night Slugs club scene than Balearic moods https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-SzLpBU63E

Re:Rousseau. Fantastic piece, thanks for posting it! I was looking at that painting in NYC earlier this year.

Hi and speaking of painting, also of blurring the line between (so-called) traditionalism and (so-called) futurism, I'm reminded of "Ancient To The Future", motto of the Art Ensemble of Chicago, which carried over into some of their visuals, like the make-up and costumes, which could seem influenced by The oil and collage paintings Three Musicians were painted in France in 1921 by Pablo Picasso. The paintings feature three musicians, dressed as a monk, Pierrot, and Harlequin, the latter two being stock characters from the Italian Commedia dell'Arte. Thanks, study.com! Or you could say they shared some of Picasso's influences, incl. Commedia and elements of African art, along with African and African-American musical elements of various eras. Also venerable Modernist attempts to mix African and European musical associations, although they didn't go as far as Anthony Braxton. As with Sun Ra (of Bessemer, Birmingham, Chicago, Germantown and elsewhere), it's not so much "Afro-Futurism" as bending time and space---and/or continuing the human jukebox/songster tradition of travelling musicians, making most of their money on the road.
So, "Ancient To and From The Future' might be more accurate---thinking also of mid-60s Dylan, and Beefheart, who seemed to be mixing Howling Wolf vocals with Ornette Coleman-related sax and overall musical conception---then there was Ornette himself with Prime Time, starting with Dancing In Your Head, with guests incl. The Master Musicians of Jajouka, and Bob Palmer of Insect Trust, itself another source of recombinant time-space ventures---and the Asian influences of instrument-builders etc like Harry Partch and Lou Harrison----but is most of this not global enough to fit fourth world? Maybe not, but seems like points of departure for Eno and Hassell in some ways (Eno's mentioned the revelations of African records and Reich's "It's Gonna Rain." Hassell might even have been living in Memphis when Insect Trust was, jamming with them for all I know. Before that, Palmer and Pharoah Sanders were roommates in Little Rock---the South can seem kinda fourth at times).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElKl5s1xQ8o&f=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbcK0jjKwSQ

Let me put this here for now, but maybe Midori Takada should have her own thread...
https://www.thewire.co.uk/audio/tracks/wire-mix-midori-takada

Ahead of her forthcoming appearance with Faitiche label founder and ambient producer Jan Jelinek at London's Union Chapel, composer Midori Takada has compiled a mix of past recordings from the 1980s and 90s. Takada features on all seven tracks, whether as a soloist or part of a duo, as part of the bands Mkwaju Ensemble or Ton-Klami, or as vibraphone accompaniment to fellow minimal composer Satoshi Ashikawa. Of all her past performances, Takada considers these pieces as being the most ambient in their sounds and sensibilities.

Tracklist

Mkwaju Ensemble
“Ki-Motion”
From Ki-Motion
(Better Days)

Mayumi Miyata & Midori Takada
“Sublimation” (Abridged)
From Nebula
(Sony)

Ton-Klami
“Link 3”
From Ton-Klami In Moers
(Ninety-One)

Mkwaju Ensemble
“Tira-Rin”
From Mkwaju
(Better Days)

Satoshi Ashikawa
“Image Under The Tree”
From Still Way
(Crescent)

Midori Takada
“Futa Aya Asobi + Usuyo”
From Tree Of Life
(BAJ)

Midori Takada & Masahiko Satoh
“Ancient Palace”
From Lunar Cruise
(Epic)

Mkwaju Ensemble - "Tira Rin": wow, this is amazing

Interesting the both Mkwaju Ensemble records were reissued <b>on CD</b> this past January in Japan. Someone must've missed the memo...

I seem to remember the Midori Takada interview in The Wire last year mentioning that WRWTFWW* were reissuing both Mkwaju albums at some point to go with the two MT albums they’ve already put out. No idea when though. My understanding is that this sort of thing takes AGES.

(I’d support a more general Fairlights/Mallets/Bamboo thread for more Japanese stuff in this vein).

* (We Release Whatever The Fuck We Want is a terrible label name)

I seem to remember the Midori Takada interview in The Wire last year mentioning that WRWTFWW* were reissuing both Mkwaju albums at some point to go with the two MT albums they’ve already put out. No idea when though. My understanding is that this sort of thing takes AGES.

Well, the first one's due in June!!
http://wrwtfww.com/album/ki-motion

Just pre-ordered! Here's hoping the first album (which has Joe Hisaishi playing on it) follows shortly too.

Just a random thought and I don't know anything about these labels and music, but since "third world" is not a term in appropriate use anymore (separates world development too much / neatly), and also since a lot of world music is now being more regularly heard by occidentals through films, frequent travels etc, I guess that it would make sense for people to look to reconstruct this feeling of discovering music from afar, either by trying to push the boundaries and finding obscure stuff (say, Madagascar and not just mbiras, Borneo Pygmy and not just Gamelan) or by inventing it.
I don't know if it can be a genre then though, in terms of consistency of approach etc.

I've had a quick look and it doesn't look like it's been mentioned but the Optimo-sequenced Miracle Steps compilation from a couple of years back is really good. Very much toward the new age/ambient end of Fourth World if that's a deal breaker. The Rapoon track is killer.

still need to hear that!

I either missed it or listened a couple of times and let it slip into the playlist abyss. Definitely need to pick up a copy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2daKDHBxV8

nice, thanks for the rec! I really like Rapoon and haven't listened to them in a while, so that alone is enough to draw me in.

wasn't sure whether to post here or on the Balearic thread or some other place, but the New World Science album that came out at the end of last year is good and ~~~vibey~~~: https://templerecordsofficial.bandcamp.com/album/osmos-movements

It doesn't look like anyone's mentioned Optimo's Miracle Steps compilation from a few years ago. It's an excellent introduction to the scene.

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Miracle-Steps-Music-From-The-Fourth-World-1983-2017/master/1160218

Literally six posts back! But agreed, it's a great compilation.

Ah bloody hell

Fourth world music from Moscow, imo much better than this year's Hassell, which I still think is a disappointment:

https://digmoscow.bandcamp.com/album/healing-cycles

Cheers pom, this is killer.

According to Spotify, Fourth World is one of my top genres. I have no idea what it is and have never in my life used it as a descriptor for what I like or seen it as a genre section in a record store. So is it ambient?

the thread has some interesting attempts at answering that question imo !

On RYM it's usually classified as 'tribal ambient' fwiw.

Ah, ok. Johnny Nash was one of my top artists (favorite for reading and sleep), and I play a bunch of Clay Pipe which would seem to fit as well. I wish Spotify unmasked some of the genres on the UI so we could see how things are classified.

Come to think of it, I hear Bennie Maupin's The Jewel in the Lotus as a precursor of 4WM.

tribal ambient is a gross genre name

Some good background reading:

https://www.anthroencyclopedia.com/entry/tribe

Hassell talks a fair bit about here: http://www.furious.com/Perfect/hassell.html

Some of it is a bit, ah, sketchy.

This must be the URL:
http://www.furious.com/perfect/hassell.html

Come to think of it, I hear Bennie Maupin's The Jewel in the Lotus as a precursor of 4WM

why tho? aside from "excursion" it's a fairly generic (and imo somewhat overrated) jazz fusion record

I've always found it to be more impressionistic and meditative than your average early/mid-70s fusion record, and 'Ensenada' in particular, with its proto-ambient harmonic wash over a percussive stutter step, puts me in mind of the vibes discussed itt (sans the electronics, of course). Maybe it's just me? Anyway, I kind of want The Jewel in the Lotus to be 'fairly generic' and 'somewhat overrated' as you say, because it would imply there are countless LPs in the genre that top it, but I just can't think of that many.

yeah I love it, a great album

I also got fourth world as one of my top genres on the Spotify thing. I expect Oregon is what they're referring to as I listen to a lot of them

what’s the relationship between this stuff, spiritual hat jazz, and high prog/fusion? it seems at least adjacent in spirit and sound

orientalism in classical music is another important influence/precursor/parallel e.g. messiaen, debussy, cage. a lot of newer “classical” music e.g. jonathan harvey seems to be coming from a vaguely similar place

Good topic for a PhD thesis in musicology.

Coincidentally I've just been listening to Jon Hassell for the past hour.

from upthread, i think this is generally otm

At its best, fourth-world music does feel like a more honest attempt to process the influence of non-Western musical ideas in a way that (as far as possible) respectfully takes into account their original context, vs overdubbing some funky African drums because it sounds exotic.

But dear god, the language used to describe this is a minefield. Hassell's music is wonderful, but when he starts describing it ("coffee-coloured") I want to slam the laptop lid down. (And he's not moved it on - went to a talk in London by him last year where his big new theory is how the north and south of the equator maps to the north and south of the body - up north it's all brain and intellect, down south it's all sex. Er, right.)

The idea makes sense when listening to JH's music, he just really shouldn't talk about it. Basically the music is far less problematic than his descriptors.

mind/body stuff is oof. shut up and play your trumpet

I like a lot of this music but feel a bit weird about it. I can live with that

This is indeed excellent. If I'd seen it being filed under 'tribal ambient' I probably would've avoided it lol, so cheers Pom.

The top "tribal ambient" picks on RYM for 2020 are all worth checking out:

https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/2020/g:exact,tribal-ambient/

Stupid genre name, agreed, but the categorization is fairly consistent. My recommended titles are the aforementioned Koyil, Karuna Trio, Contours, MinaeMinae, XYR, Molero, and the Alternate African Reality comp. Tag it as Fourth World or Balearic if it makes it more palatable.

According to Spotify, Fourth World is one of my top genres. I have no idea what it is and have never in my life used it as a descriptor for what I like or seen it as a genre section in a record store. So is it ambient?

― brotherlovesdub, Wednesday, December 2, 2020 10:38 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Funny, yesterday evening my wife said this exact post out loud to me about her Spotify results nearly word for word.

I listened to a bunch of Japanese ambient too which I think is now Fourth World according to the machines at Spotify.

The Contours album ‘Balafon Sketches’ is great

Also yes the Koyil album is lovely, though it reminds me more of U. F. Orb than Jon Hassell.

xp

yep Balafon Sketches is some very nice ear candy, not seen many reviews and I think the only person I've seen repping for it was Ted Gioia.