Where is the infamous Rolling Stones sample in "Bittersweet Symphony" ?

i felt like that when i heard 'superfreak' for the first time.

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max otm loool was gonna doa 'cruel intentions' thread today but forgot. so dope.

David Whitaker really deserves some credit in that story, at least as much as Oldham (and certainly a bit more).

I've always felt that the Verve get kinda hosed here. Yes, the chords and supporting bgd is the Loog Oldham orchestra. But the hooks are all theirs: the string melody, the vocal melody.

However much a douche Ashcroft is is beside the point. The orchestral tune is nice -- over the top of it the Verve made a big, catchy pop tune that's some kind of classic.

uh if you take a big obvious uncleared sample like this you're pretty much begging to be sued, no matter how much stuff you add over it

Pretty sure they did clear the sample and that there was an agreed to 50/50 royalty split.

That said the best argument that this is more Stones than the Verve is the fact that neither the Verve nor Ashcroft wrote anything half as successful.

I *can* hear the main orchestral hook, even though I know it's not there

That said the best argument that this is more Stones than the Verve is the fact that neither the Verve nor Ashcroft wrote anything half as successful.

Yeah but how many people HAVE?

(I mean it was one of the biggest hits of the entire decade)

Okay maybe a 1/10th as successful? Successful at all? A top 5 hit?

the whole thing's such a joke because Jagger/Richards ripped off/stole from so many people - the idea that their manager took advantage of the Verve to reap a ridiculous legal settlement from a sample is very uhhhh waht.

but its always funny to hear people actually complain (still! after all these years!) about how sampling is stealing, not original, etc.

for one thing the Stones' version of "The Last Time" is itself ripped (completely uncredited) from the Staple Singers

Actually I guess they had a couple of other UK top 5 hits, but whatever.

lolz as I already pointed out way upthread hah

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this is a good song and i don't like the rolling stones very much

Yeah I'm not arguing that the Verve didn't get fleeced.

do people who complain about this sample complain about Eric B and Rakim looping James Brown or Dr. Dre looping P-Funk or Puffy looping the Police or or or

I'm guessing most of them do.

I think the issue here is that most people initially heard the Verve and had never heard the orchestral version of "The Last Time" and so they thought "hey that Verve song sounds nothing like "The Last Time" the Verve got completely ripped off" and so consequently when they hear the original they overreact in the other direction.

I feel like people who complain about this sample probably don't know who Eric B and Rakim are...but probably felt their heart break when they watched the "where Daft Punk got their samples from" youtube video

this is a good song and i don't like the rolling stones very much

To make a comparison, this isn't, like, Puff Daddy taking the entirety of "Every Breath You Take" and having someone sing the melody of the original in the background with a chorus. It's the CHORDS, for god's sake.

consequently when they hear the original they overreact in the other direction

yeah I just did this

t's the CHORDS, for god's sake.

lolz so we're gonna start complaining about stealing chord progressions now? you gotta be kidding

No we're not, that's my point.

ah. I wasn't sure.

It's pretty silly to be against sampling per se, but in general, I trust my own ears, and I trust other people's ears. If the original sounds too much like the thing that sampled it, or vice versa, why should the one who sampled it get any credit? I can think of other instances where I've gone back and heard the song someone sampled from and there was a pretty clear difference. This is not one of those cases. The sad fact is, everything that makes Bittersweet Symphony appealing comes directly from that sample. Stuff like the Vanilla Ice & Puff Daddy tracks are just stupid. They merely exploit the fact that a lot of folks will not have heard the originals.

The sad fact is, everything that makes Bittersweet Symphony appealing comes directly from that sample.

Severely disagree. Most of the song's appeal comes from its almost dance-like adjustment of level, additions of layers, etc.

"They merely exploit the fact that a lot of folks will not have heard the originals."

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

Actually, I think the percussion in BSS might be its secretest, strongest weapon.

Yeah, what most people think of when they think of that song is the string riff...which didn't come from the sample. Or the vocal parts: "It's a bittersweet..." and "Don't change/I can change."

The hooks all come from Verve. There's a good argument that they wouldn't have come up with them without the sample in the first place. But that's it.

I'd say the Stones should have gotten a third to half of the music credit. But all the credit—while it may be the "legal" thing—is neither fair no accurate.

I think the lyrics + vocal hook + the string riff are the main appeals here, altho there are a whole lot of nice audio-candy touches to it (the percussion, the squalling guitar feedback bits, etc.)

f the original sounds too much like the thing that sampled it, or vice versa, why should the one who sampled it get any credit? I can think of other instances where I've gone back and heard the song someone sampled from and there was a pretty clear difference.

the key problem here is that what constitutes "a clear difference" is totally a matter of perspective. There are rap songs that are just straight loops of Atomic Dog or More Bounce to the Ounce and some people wouldn't consider a guy talking about how awesome he is over that loop "a clear difference", while the rest of us would beg to differ... context is everything. the fact is the Verve took this little-known recording and recontextualized it in a way that obviously captured a lot of people's imagination. That the song credit reads "written by Jagger/Richards, performed by the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra, with vocals by Richard Ashcroft" (<<<<this is literally what it says in the Urban Hymns liner notes) is just beyond fucking ridiculous.

yes

the thing that bugs here is that the Verve did play by the rules, signing over the publishing to Jagger / Richards just to be safe, and then the manager of the band decided to go for MORE. and got it! it's just an absolute case of there being no safe way of making music in this way, there's only lawyers and greed. it's a total outrage, and an incredibly unhealthy decision for music, regardless of what any one person thinks of this song, this decision to me is just as frustrating / depressing as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport_Music,_Inc._v._Dimension_Films

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

Haha, yes.

I meant the planet Earth btw.

the thing that bugs here is that the Verve did play by the rules, signing over the publishing to Jagger / Richards just to be safe, and then the manager of the band decided to go for MORE. and got it!

Working with Allen Klein is like trying to invade Russia during the winter. You might believe that things will be OK at first, this time for sure, but you WILL lose and you WILL be left with nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Klein

Pretty sure they did clear the sample and that there was an agreed to 50/50 royalty split.

o rly

I'd never heard this before and it's pretty jawdropping.

...but sounds nothing like the Stones tune. The orchestra version anyway...

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

I would guess a lot of people born after 1990 haven't, as they are also too young to be familiar with "I'll Be Missing You".

"o rly"

Well that's what wikipedia sez. If it's not true take it up with them.

i'm pretty sure that less than 50% of human beings on the planet Earth have heard "Every Breath You Take"

I'm pretty sure people too dumb to understand hyperbole don't deserve to have the concept explained to them.

too dumb, lol

Don't worry gabbneb you'll hit 50 soon enough and then you can go back to picking nits off your dick.

Or rather hit 50 again, right.

lol

https://pitchfork.com/news/rolling-stones-finally-give-bitter-sweet-symphony-songwriting-credit-to-the-verves-richard-ashcroft/

That’s very nice of them. It was always total fucking bullshit that Ashcroft had to give them the rights to the song in the first place.

I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, January 19, 2004 1:43 PM (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahaha jesus that was fifteen years ago.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure that most people made the connection between 'Bittersweet Symphony' and 'The Last Time' anyway - it's one of those things you really wouldn't have been able to figure out unless you were told what the sample was supposed to be. It's not, like, say, Shed Seven literally ripping off 'Back Street Girl' on 'Out By My Side', which was a really brazen, obvious rip that they didn't get sued over.

It’s cool they did that. Does Ashcroft also receive a share of past royalties, or only future royalties? I looked up the source articles, but that point isn’t clear to me.