Fewer vs Less

i don't correct ppls usage of this stuff IRL but i assume most people on this board have taken a college english course

xp - That's the logic behind it, yes.

Also, most people accept 'less' in place of 'fewer' these days, and if most people accept it as correct then it is correct and nothing we can do to change it, like it or not. So there is that too.

all of these are fine

― don't take my kindness for wokeness (seandalai), Monday, December 19, 2016 4:52 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago)

for the lulz i agonized over whether to correct this to "all these are fine" but i actually think this may be correct. "these" is a pronoun here, right?

check the outrageous decimal/duodecimal privilege behind "the logic behind it". e.g

An Amazonian language with only 300 speakers has no word to express the concept of "one" or any other specific number, according to a new study from an MIT-led team.
The team, led by MIT professor of brain and cognitive sciences Edward Gibson, found that members of the Piraha tribe in remote northwestern Brazil use language to express relative quantities such as "some" and "more," but not precise numbers.

all of these are fine

― don't take my kindness for wokeness (seandalai), Monday, December 19, 2016 4:52 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago)

for the lulz i agonized over whether to correct this to "all these are fine" but i actually think this may be correct. "these" is a pronoun here, right?

― k3vin k., Monday, December 19, 2016 5:53 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"Please change to 'These are all fine'" -- Editor

As a linguistics person I know there's bullshit coming if I ever hear revolutionary findings about the Piraha. And bullshit comes every day it seems.

It is my opinion that remote Amazonian tribes enjoy bullshitting western researchers, who make convenient butts for the jokes played on them. It livens up their day and gives everyone a good laugh for years to come.

"I went to the trendy pizzeria again last night and I am Hitler." NO

"I went to the trendy pizzeria again last night and I love Hitler." YES

http://i.imgur.com/w1fQUe2.jpg

"Shouldn't it be 'fewer'?"

"OH HELLO THERE, LORD GRAMMARIAN VON I-KNOW-EVERYTHING. WELCOME TO WALMART!"

http://i.imgur.com/MoFjf4i.jpg

I notice most of the counter examples given so far, such as weight, time or distance can easily be conceived of as unitary entities and the units by which they are measured can be seen as purely arbitrary. Not that any of it is important, but it shows me that there's a hidden method to the choice of "less" when referring to units (ounces, inches, minutes) that are grammatically enumerable, but can also be thought of as chopping a unitary kind of 'stuff' into arbitrary bits by a kind of mental overlay that doesn't really exist.

The 'Hitler' example, above, is particularly interesting to me because it is quite dodgy, in that "useless ores" could refer either to the minerals or metals contained in the ore, or it could refer to the mass of raw material extracted directly from the mines, the rubble of undifferentiated rock. When Hitler responds "Mine less" it is ambiguous whether he is ordering a reduction of mining activity, i.e. extracting less ore from the mines, in which case "less" is correct. Or is he ordering a cessation of all mining for a particular set of "useless" minerals or metals? In which case, "fewer" is correct.

The original speaker says "too many", rather than "too much", which indicates the latter alternative, but one wonders why anyone would laboriously extract ore just to obtain useless metals or minerals?

i like noodles

aren't puppies cute!

Insisting there's a logic behind it is a bit strange, considering the absurdities of:

Use less when you’re referring to something that can’t be counted or doesn’t have a plural (e.g. money, air, time, music, rain)

from the page already quoted by Camaraderie at Arms Length

& considering there is no equivalent for 'more', and we seem to get along fine.

this drives me crazy, but i never correct ppl on it because it's hard to find a non-obnoxious way to do it

also gave up a while back on correcting ppl who say "i could care less"

It's difficult not to be obnoxious when you're trying to enforce the oppressive cultural encoding of quantity!

If it can be counted as individual things (buttons, cars), it is fewer.

If it is measured as an amount of one thing (water, flour), then it's less.

What really annoys me though is people saying 'over' when they mean 'more than'. Over is a preposition, you fucking cretin.

i don't have a good mnemonic for it

Insisting there's a logic behind it is a bit strange, considering the absurdities of:

Use less when you’re referring to something that can’t be counted or doesn’t have a plural (e.g. money, air, time, music, rain)

from the page already quoted by Camaraderie at Arms Length

― Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Tuesday, December 20, 2016 4:05 AM (eight hours ago)

why is this absurd?

Because it's an rather arbitrary stylistic choice - there's no 'logic' behind it.

His weight fell from 18 stone to less than 12.

Are you really arguing that we use 'less' in this case because "there are more measurements between 18 stone and 12 than only 13, 14, etc (there is 12.5, 16.3, etc)"?

No, you use "less" because unless you're in an Ed Gein situation, one does not think of the units that make up "weight" as discrete objects.

this is one of those weird linguistic things i instinctively understand and always get right in writing but if i'm not paying attention nearly always get wrong in speech

* there is a logic behind every grammatical choice we make, might be a ridiculously convoluted logic, but there is one anyway.
* 'fewer' is slipping out of use, the only reason I teach it is because it's a standard thing on IELTS etc., and the sooner it's gone the better.

Oh, and this was a good read re: piraha - http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/tom-wolfes-reflections-language/

This is one of those rules that serves no useful purpose and nobody has ever been misunderstood because they used "less" instead of "fewer", so even if I sometimes get bothered by this sort of thing (not this one specifically, but other similar things), I never point it out because I know that the problem is with me and not the person who said or wrote this.

http://www.thatdanny.com/wp-content/2008/11/one_fewer_one_less_survey.gif

this discussion has moved on from what the precise usage is at this point, i think. everyone understands

is the pizzeria still trendy if not as much people are going there these days

'nobody goes there anymore -- it's too crowded.'

-- bob marley

children in pizzerias is the probable culprit

one of those cases where more is less, eh?

What a great thread. Language is what makes us human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_language

That article is a good read, and I like the image comparing the patterns of languages with the recursive patterns of the nautilus and the snowflake. Thinking about the aesthetic qualities of language tempers my negativity somewhat.

“more and more fewer”
ALMOST

So this just came up

usually worth ignoring, unless it's in a professional writing/editing capacity

unfewer

There's a site whose search function I use for work every day, which is set up to offer 'more options' or 'less options' and, well, it's been years now and I'm still not over it. It hurts me in my heart.

enumerable -> fewer
unenumerable -> less

i don't have a good mnemonic for it

― ciderpress, Monday, December 19, 2016 3:59 PM

Proxy feul

Every express lane ever: “10 Items or Less”
GAHHH

who cares, we don't have two words for 'more'.

caring about this is reactionary

"well actually i think you'll find the true meaning of decimate is..." fuck off

Ok you got me, i call

nobody has ever been misunderstood because they used "less" instead of "fewer"

Try fewer

Using less for fewer sounds okay: there were less people in the store today than yesterday.

Using fewer for less sounds terrible: I put fewer gas in the car today than yesterday.

I'm posting right now because I get fewer sleep since I retired.

Use the fewer of two evils, clem?

less makes sense there because people use it like that, fewer doesn't because people don't, but if they started doing so it would

I guess that's true, but if enough people started using book when they meant apple, you'd get used to that too. It's not a big deal to me, and I'd certainly never correct anyone, but the distinction seems basic enough. It's one of those grammar things I actually enjoyed teaching to kids, because you could make them laugh through intentional misuse.

This rule is great because some of you lads have a lot of energy to burn off

Swear to god nv i deleted a post that said "are you burning calories at this or what"

High five or fewer

fewer is greater

The fewer of two evils.

Oh I see dmac already took that one.

Forgive me, I just had a less things to get off my chest.

i could really care fewer

Everything is fewer than zero, hey!

Fewer, less, what does it really matter, I try not to let it bother me that many

I know it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but this is one I do notice. "12 items or less" sounds just as jarring to me as "How much items do you have?"

Pardon me, sir, I believe you mean to say 'how much items does you have'.

OMG, that appears to be more of a thing than I ever would've thought

'how much items do' - About 2,340 results (0.41 seconds)

there's so much less examples of "x or fewer" around that i would find that jarring. it's weird people feel strongly about this. usages that are common and understood within the language aren't wrong, irregardless of what people were taught

If you didn't see it, the last post on the second-thoughts thread, pertaining to this one, is pretty great.

“Hopefully this year will allow us less virtual and more socially distanced in person events!”

Shut the fuck up

i find myself caring about the distinction fewer and fewer

It feels good to have the knowledge necessary to draw a fine distinction that is rarely required, unless it spoils your ability to discern when it isn't required and turns you into a monster.

I get paid to make prose conform to the preferences of whoever is paying me at any given moment. Right and wrong are irrelevant, it is just about market forces and my wish to keep my children fed.

Grammar Nazis sure do love their Fewer.

I enjoy the distinction tbh.