Taking sides: Children vs. (non-human) animals

not all intimacy is sexual, dan

children ask very basic questions for sure

i mean parents seem to get something more out of them because of context -- the parent-child relationship

so they read into these simple questions extravagant metaphors and philosophical inquiries

but a kid basically just worries when he will eat, when he will poop, and what game s/he's playing next, but for a brief second asks why little jimmy can't play with a kid, parent says some half-truth, and thinks deeply about race relationships and injustices in the world, then drives away in their hybrid/gas-guzzling car

but a kid basically just worries when he will eat, when he will poop, and what game s/he's playing next

this is not accurate ime

i love basic questions so much

the best is hearing what answers dads give on the street

theyre not capable of thinking in complex ways due to their lack of real life experience

you can talk to them about social justice, the environment, equality, but it ends there. their reactions cannot be compared to an adult and are scientifically primitive

children are megalomaniacs and thinking contrary to that sounds pretty silly

^ Yeah, but plenty of adults don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I side with Laurie Anderson on that one

I don't get why you are equating complex thinking with political issues

xp

but an adult surely has more potential of life experience than someone who has been alive, say, 5 years

xp

their frame of reference is more limited, but there is a lot of complex thinking that goes on within that

xp

i never really thought about kids until i had kids. i didn't know many kids. none of my friends had kids. the first time i ever held a baby was when we had a baby. didn't come from a family with lots of kids. i know more kids now obviously. they're okay. most of them are pretty boring. i like my kids because that's how it works. i am definitely more sympathetic towards parents and more tolerant when i see/hear kids acting up or screaming or babies crying or whatever. they don't bother me. because i've been there.

children are emotionally underdeveloped

you want them to talk deep about what it feels that they can't eat an extra cookie? or that they accidentally peed/pooped their pants?

there is no complex thinking a child can produce because of limited and less varied experiences. their world is too highly controlled

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

Things kids are often v interested in exploring/talking about that def involve complex thinking: the natural environment, mechanical processes, basic physics, animals, the list is p long. Limiting complexity to the vagaries of human social constructs is p arbitrary.

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

but teach a baby to fish

what age are these pooping kids anyway? two?

i realize the FA symbol person is being silly, but is he/she talking about toddlers? i guess he/she must be. since he/she is talking about babies on rooftops.

yeah idk

those were random examples dude

children are limited by their vocabulary as well

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

and their 'complex thinking' is that of an average child of course. kids are empty vessels and whatever words you teach them do not have the same depth of meaning they do for adults, but parents get mesmerized when they can speak like adults

children's emotional intelligence do not improve drastically as far as i've seen til they're about 8, 9 or 10

i have/want neither children nor dogs but it doesn't seem too far-fetched that other people might. or so i gather from looking around

also seems possible that creatures might have worth outside of their ability to entertain me/avoid interrupting my conversations about cancer

don't throw your back out moving those goalposts

xp

what a bizarre thing to say

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

and their 'complex thinking' is that of an average child of course. kids are empty vessels and whatever words you teach them do not have the same depth of meaning they do for adults

unclear on how kids differ from adults based on these parameters

articulate adults - they talk p much like most other adults!
adults are empty vessels that use whatever words they've been taught
complex thinking is that of an average adult

blah blah blah

maybe you could start by defining what you mean by the words "child" and "complex thinking" cuz it's clear as mud to me

children's emotional intelligence do not improve drastically as far as i've seen til they're about 8, 9 or 10 32

^^^

but an adult surely has more potential of life experience than someone who has been alive, say, 5 years

xp

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:00 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the baby on the rooftop tragedy was a fatal combination of silliness and gravity

sorry i dont really think complexity of thought is necessarily correlated with life experience

xp

I am unclear on how an adult's "potential of life experience" is related to complex thinking. There are plenty of adults who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag after a lifetime of experience.

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

my example was my own kid bc that's who i have most experience talking w/ but i pretty clearly said this is the case for any verbal child ive talked to

it's very easy

the older the person the more potential for life experiences

that's pretty clear. why would i think a 5 year old has something more interesting to say than a 30 year old?

in practice, maybe a 30 year old may be as dumb as a doornail but the potential to better express his/herself is there

wait how is ability to express oneself related to complexity of thought, those are totally different things

children are rarely conscious of the complexities of their own feelings unless they can articulate them, and this is limited by their vocabulary and limited experiences

my first kid blew people away when he was little. with the way he spoke. he was kinda bizarre that way. he could read when he was two. probably like a lot of you braniacs. he's way smarter than me already and he's 14.

tbqf i've been exposed to more interesting things in the 5+ years i've had a kid than i have been in any five year period of my life since i myself was a kid. i think it's just taking what i normally do in my own time and adding on top of it more museums, more art, reading about astronomy and dinosaurs and marine life and math and language and what not. i think in trying to keep him engaged with interesting things, i'm more engaged as well. it's made me less cynical (in some ways) and certainly more understanding towards other parents. and like scott i never had much interaction with kids before we had ours. holding a baby, never! jeez i might drop the thing. it sounds moronic maybe but at a certain point before he was born i sort of imagined what kind of dad and by extension of that what kind of person i wanted to be, and i've tried hard to manifest that and be a better and more thoughtful and patient and kind person than i was before. i'm amazed at other parents who can become supermoms or superdads and have their four kids and volunteer daily at school and run shit, it's crazy what they can accomplish. i don't have the time or ability i'm just trying to raise a good kid and an empathetic person, and i feel lucky that a) he's surrounded by good people and has good friends, and b) he had a kind heart (though he's not above slapping the living hell out of me when he has a meltdown.) anyway, parenting is not easy and the ones who sacrifice to give their kid a better upbringing deserve admiration and not scorn because they suddenly seem boring. i find myself, personally, far less bored now at 42 than i was when i was 24 or 28 or whenever.

here's an example: I was talking w my 8yo about how the sun works the other day, what it's composed of, why it gives off light and heat, etc. some of the things involved are pretty complex (nuclear reactions, how elements are formed, that kind of thing) - by contrast I know plenty of adults (like, say, my 70yo mother) who, after a lifetime of experience, couldn't tell you a goddamn thing about how the sun works.

xp

not to take anything away from cyrus. he's really smart too.

I could read at 3, I turned out to be an idiot tho

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:03 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This reads like a lifehack

children are rarely conscious of the complexities of their own feelings unless they can articulate them, and this is limited by their vocabulary and limited experiences

what do feelings have to do with anything, I hate listening to people blabber about their feelings

xp

here's an example: I was talking w my 8yo about how the sun works the other day, what it's composed of, why it gives off light and heat, etc. some of the things involved are pretty complex (nuclear reactions, how elements are formed, that kind of thing) - by contrast I know plenty of adults (like, say, my 70yo mother) who, after a lifetime of experience, couldn't tell you a goddamn thing about how the sun works.

xp

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:23 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that was you teaching your child something

we're talking about children's ability to have an interesting, deep, emotional, or intelligent conversation. at that point, your child was not even aware of those scientific phenomena so it was hardly a conversation

not to take away from any child's ability to comprehend facts and the natural operation of the world. i think most kids are very capable

that's funny I don't remember telling you who said what in our conversation but way to assume shit

lol

i'm assuming you gave enough info to (1) make your point and (2) for me to refute it

but anyway

still cool with kids

i hate to be one of those people, but i do think kids at their best tend to be better people in general. before they get ruined by life. it's not just the innocence thing, it's more than that. it's that freshness. and that includes thinking. and expressing themselves. and creating. playing. they are some sort of ideal as far as people go. and i know i just said that most of them bore me. and they do bore me, but i would say 1 to 10 is kinda the coolest time to be human if you are the curious sort or excited by new things. learning can be so exciting for kids that age. and its sad that the end result can be a dull adult who trudges through life. it's the best time to watch your kids become people too. it's cool.

it's true that she was (in part) repeating things that she had been taught (hey, just like adults do!), but the more important aspect of the conversation was that she was able to answer questions I put to her by extrapolating from the facts she had learned to draw conclusions - which is complex thinking that most adults don't bother with cuz they're just "eh I'll look it up on wikipedia if I ever have to"

xp

that was you teaching your child something

we're talking about children's ability to have an interesting, deep, emotional, or intelligent conversation. at that point, your child was not even aware of those scientific phenomena so it was hardly a conversation

not to take away from any child's ability to comprehend facts and the natural operation of the world. i think most kids are very capable

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:27 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol this is dumb. "the conversation you had was in my opinion not interesting, deep, emotional or intelligent."

eh at this point if your argument is that children are not capable of having an "interesting, deep, emotional or intelligent conversation" i don't know why im going to bother

can't wait for you guys to agree

hey outic

its a strange thread for parents to double down on the wonderment of parenthood iycwim

― loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:28 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

being as pissy as lex from the other direction is still u getting pissy as lex in an internet thread about children vs dogs literally an internet thread about children vs dogs cmon ta fuck