Star Trek: Classic or Dud?

Voyager is absolutely carried by its characters, I have to say I probably have the most overall affection for its cast of any of the ST crews. It's what carries me through the inevitable lulls in its plotting.

i feel the opposite about Voyager - Seven, the Doctor, Tuvok, and Janeway are good characters but the rest of the cast are pretty boring (Paris, Chakotay, Harry, Kes) or aren't really given enough of a chance to distinguish themselves (the episode where Neelix dies and is brought back to life by Seven and has a crisis of faith is one of my favorites but it's the only time they really let the character do something meaningful. Torres gets a few good episodes but i'd still put her in this boat too). the Voyager episodes that work best for me are the high concept TNG-style ones where the characters don't matter as much.

Move Along is terrible!

I liked it!

Torres gets a few good episodes but i'd still put her in this boat too

Like that Klingon Barge of the Dead boat?

Move Along Home is silly but it has some interesting visual stuff in it which is more than you can say for a lot of the other dud episodes

http://i.imgur.com/lFnXzML.jpg

DS9 and Voyager probably have the most character development out of the series. Voyager out of necessity -- wow it would have been a hell of a slog if they had that premise and everyone remained static.

I'd kind of forgotten how much development there was on DS9. It wasn't just the writers getting into a groove after a few season, although that happened. Rewatching the early part of the series and seeing Kira as still unable to trust Sisko (she calls his boss to complain!) and an away team trapped in one of Odo's memories as he comes to terms with the fact he executed innocent people during the Cardassian era of the station.

I tried to start on DS9 but the premiere was so bad (often in a v odd way - wtf is up w the Captain's line readings) I couldn't go beyond it

sisko line readings are legendarily weird

the DS9 premiere is pretty good so if you weren't into it then i doubt much else is gonna change yr mind

it was mostly Sisko's line-readings, the clumsy flashback, and the ferengi that put me off (I've never like the ferengi as characters)

I'm not that into the ferengi culture episodes, but DS9 has a core ferengi family that nearly redeems the weird stereotypes they represent in some of the other series

DS9 pretty much rescues the Ferengi from the cartoon villain niche TNG had placed them, they become much more interesting and less clichéd during the series' run. Nog's character arc especially is one of the best things about DS9, the scene where he confronts Sisko's implicit racism towards him is so powerful, and a very effective criticism against sci-fi writers' tendency to give each alien species just one dominant attribute (all Klingons are proud warriors, all Ferengi are shameless capitalists, etc). That scene madene cry, something I never could've imagined based on how TNG handled the Ferengi.

Xmessage

"that scene made me cry"

DS9, the show that gave you an episode where a Ferengi deals with his post-traumatic stress from combat in the holodeck and it ends up being one of the show's best.

Don't forget that the one who helps him deal with PTSD is a hologram 1950s crooner! And yeah, it's a great episode.

wtf is up w the Captain's line readings

He's the inheritor of Shatner's theatricality!

It bugged me at first too, but if you listen to him in that way, he's a lot of fun. He's more conventionally powerful later on in the series, though.

great article linked above on DS9 recap, though it breaks my heart whenever people suggest skipping episodes (though frankly they're skipping a smallish portion in that guide). suffer or die!

ciderpress: totally agreed on your Voyager stance

yeah that DS9 guide linked above is good but at the very least i would add in season 3 two-parter "Past Tense" with its ever-increasingly believable portrayal of a dystopian 2024 San Francisco

regarding voyager characters, Chakotay is possibly the biggest missed opportunity for a character in all of trek. They developed the Maquis just for voyager, then they did nothing with him.

yeah he was indistinguishable from a normal starfleet officer by the end of the first season

my wife has been working her way through voyager recently and i've been half-watching along with her, mostly seeing these episodes for the first time

the conclusion i have come to through this process is as follows: harry kim is the most pathetic wet blanket in the history of television

also, every time chakotay's native american heritage is invoked it always seems to involve a bunch of embarrassing new age bullshit

otm, harry is nearly offensive in that regard

trying to remember how the ds9/voyager rollout went -- how much airtime did voyager even have before the maquis were all killed on ds9?

the Maquis were introduced in the 2nd season of DS9 and Voyager debuted the following year afaik, long before any of the big shit went down in DS9

yeah, looks like mid-season five of DS9 was when it all came to a head

also, every time chakotay's native american heritage is invoked it always seems to involve a bunch of embarrassing new age bullshit

― not all those who chunder are sloshed (bizarro gazzara), Monday, November 14, 2016 4:00 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the flutes! every time.

BTW I did not mean to indicate I like ALL of Voyager's crew/cast. Harry Kim and Tom Paris suck. B'ellana is ok sometimes but mostly dull. Chakotay is missed opportunity, I agree, but I really like his relationship with the captain.

sooo, the Doctor, Tuvok, Seven of Nine, Janeway and Neelix then?

doc and tuvok are the mvps to me, mainly because of the actors, both of whom are great

seven of nine is cool most of the time, janeway is written to be infallible too often but mulgrew plays her brilliantly, and neelix is a nuclear-grade irritant who should have been blasted into the frigid vacuum of space in the first episode tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKTpBN6jKa4

hah i was about to mention that episode as the one that sold me on tuvok as a great character

were there multiple episodes of tuvok getting horny or am i confusing it with all the other horny vulcan episodes

if they exist i haven't seen them

sooo, the Doctor, Tuvok, Seven of Nine, Janeway and Neelix then?

― mh 😏, Monday, November 14, 2016 4:32 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And sort of Chakotay. And unlike most people I also like Kes.

I hate Neelix but in a way that I enjoy.

Star Trek wasn’t just a show; it was a whole philosophy. People don’t love Star Trek just because it’s got wacky aliens. They love it because the wacky aliens bonk each other with goofed-up widgets while a bunch of dunces in matching pajamas yammer on and on as their doors whoosh back and forth, all to make some Dr. Seuss-type point.

Just watched Voyager's "Body and Soul" where Jeri Ryan gets to do her best Robert Picardo impression -- quite recommended.

and the doctor misuses her body, so creepy

http://www.clickhole.com/article/oral-history-star-trek-5174 (where that quote that ciderpress posted comes from)

Is that worth reading? Funny or just silly?

I lold

lol @ the fake episode titles

Okay, you've convinced me.

I still can't believe that Paramount has not done a "new next generation" type show basically picking up the Next Generation/DS 9/Voyager story 15-20 years later. They could use some of the cast from those three shows and basically go from there. It seems with the love of streaming shows a huge cast version of Star Trek would be big on line.

from the official Roddenberry Facebook page:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15230750_10154054216128144_5758750103261605148_n.jpg?oh=e836282e504821239b70442132feb5bc&oe=58B4DA60

Put that on our tree last night

One would hope there is an IDIC hanging right next to it.

lol

that thing also has audio of the "ship ... out of danger?" etc. exchange

that's amazing

What? Audio too!?

Now I'm imagining Scotty telling Mary "He's dead, already"