The nation may survive, but the wound to hope and order will never fully heal - US elections 2016: the october surprises

I know that the verbiage about rigged elections and waffling on whether he'll concede isn't anything more than petulant, preemptive sore loser speak completely unmoored from anything resembling strategy or rational thought, but I honestly don't know what Trump hopes to achieve with that shit. If anything, it seems like it'll hurt the chances of the entire GOP by depressing the votes of people who are convinced to avoid participation in an apparently tainted electoral process.

sure, but trump never gave a shit about the GOP anyway

Yeah, there was a Slate "hot take" that basically responded with Who gives a fuck if he concedes?

i'm not buying the whole "people will stay home if they believe the election is rigged" thing. sure, logic would dictate that if the outcome is predetermined, they have no reason to show up, but when has logic played a significant role in trump voters' decision-making process?

For that matter, per how many first time voters helped him get the nom, since when has voting played a significant role in Trump voters decision-making process?

it doesn't have to depress a large % of his voters to make a impact down ballot

Oh, I think a large % of his voters are plenty depressed.

Looking back at these 3 debates--they were the test case for the right wing fantasy, going back to at least 1992, that if their candidate just got over things like "dignity" and went into a debate with a head full of talk radio or batshitsite zings then the Democrat would shrink and fall gasping to the floor in shock. (Remember that the reason some of these candidates like Newt did okay for a spell was fan-fic about how tough they'd be in the general debates.) So they finally went ahead and nominated the guy who had no problem saying any of this stuff, even if he didn't fully understand it, who would turn to Hillary and threaten her with prison, and it worked out just as well as previous GOP political hacks thought it would.

otm

They were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn 't stop to think if they should

Clinton had some very, very good answers (I surprised myself by being moved by some of her language - she was fantastic with regard to Trump's dismissal of the women who have come forward to accuse him). She also had some enormous glaring duds; the Clinton Foundation thing in particular just didn't go anywhere near the question, for which it wouldn't be hard to have a better answer. If Trump weren't just a walking pile of resentments and id, he could have followed up on that and really laid out "the case" (such as he sees it). But it was just more word salad.

― DOCTOR CAISNO, BYCREATIVELABBUS (Doctor Casino), Thursday, October 20, 2016 9:58 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Another kinda dud thing was her not simply responding "of course the accusers are not affiliated with me on any level, that's ridiculous (and pathetic desperate conspiracy fuel)" when Trump went there.

There were lots of easy shots she didn't take, perhaps because she didn't want to get into a no YOU did screaming match with this idiot. By the way, I loved his "No, YOU'RE the puppet!" 5-year old come back.

I feel like she didn't really have to go there with the accusers, because she basically nailed him on what he was doing generally: attacking the accusers. So any bluster he adds on top of that, blaming Clinton or otherwise, just further damns him. I do wish she'd taken on the "paid people to start fights at our rallies" thing. I mean as she's pointed out she can't spend the whole time debunking every lie he tells, which is almost everything out of his mouth.

She barely went into his Trump Foundation bullshit and could have, instead of pointlessly defending her own foundation; there is tons of investigation into that, not least the Trump Found. losing the right to operate in New York. He brought up Buffett again, but Buffett himself released details proving Trump wrong. And she never brings up where he manufactures his shit clothing line. She was slightly more successful changing the subject from Wikileaks to Russia, that got under his skin.

Yeah, I was thinking... doesn't pushing the rigged narrative hurt his own party's turnout more?

President K otm.

Trump is pretty much fulfilling exactly what some people have been asking for. Make an appeal to "downscale whites." Strong Talk on Immigration is a winner with this group. Anti-PC, anti-elite, anti-media stances are winners with this group. So now you've got a candidate bringing the ingredients: Strong Talk on Immigration? Check. Anti-media? Double-check. Anti-PC? Uber-check. Anti-elite.

Also see all the calls for "finally a fighting fighter who fights," leading everyone to approvingly quote Lincoln on Grant.

None of these assets are general election winners, which we've known all along. But now we've had a decent test case on it. Maybe the clamoring for JUST LIKE TRUMP ONLY MOAR will be the next amusement.

americans have a short memory and it's hard to know what will happen w/ various GOP politicians, but i really, really really hope that mike pence's career will sink in a shit-filled toilet, he deserves the worst

they were the test case for the right wing fantasy, going back to at least 1992, that if their candidate just got over things like "dignity" and went into a debate with a head full of talk radio or batshitsite zings then the Democrat would shrink and fall gasping to the floor in shock

this is the funniest/weirdest/most pathetic thing about what i read over at The_Donald --- these dorks get so fuckin fired up about the supposed ~potency~ of their talking points, and even talk about them like they've picked up a legendary weapon in some loot drop. it's so...juvenile

I really fear this Trump asshole is going to result in some lives lost.
Trump’s supporters talk rebellion, assassination at his rallies (Original title) Boston Globe 10/15

And if Trump doesn’t win, some are even openly talking about violent rebellion and assassination, as fantastical and unhinged as that may seem.

“If she’s in office, I hope we can start a coup. She should be in prison or shot. That’s how I feel about it,” Dan Bowman, a 50-year-old contractor, said of Hillary Clinton, the Democratic nominee. “We’re going to have a revolution and take them out of office if that’s what it takes. There’s going to be a lot of bloodshed. But that’s what it’s going to take. . . . I would do whatever I can for my country.”

when you're openly living in a fantasy world it doesn't really matter what excuse you come up with for yourself. there are any number of ways they could try and explain why trump's failure is meaningless for the republican party. "not a real republican", for instance.

i will be keeping an eye on kansas to see if state-wide parties have the capacity to walk themselves back from the brink, though i'm pretty skeptical.

I feel like she didn't really have to go there with the accusers, because she basically nailed him on what he was doing generally: attacking the accusers. So any bluster he adds on top of that, blaming Clinton or otherwise, just further damns him. I do wish she'd taken on the "paid people to start fights at our rallies" thing. I mean as she's pointed out she can't spend the whole time debunking every lie he tells, which is almost everything out of his mouth.

― DOCTOR CAISNO, BYCREATIVELABBUS (Doctor Casino), Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:23 AM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I just felt something that should be so easy to deny calmly helps with her issues with trustworthiness (which is part of Trump's """strategy""" to capitalize on that issue voters have with her), and it would backfire on Trump to have her reinforce the "can you believe this shit?" gut reaction voters should be having when Trump makes those desperate conspiratorial rebuttals. I agree that also applies to the "paid people to start fights at our rallies" because now it looks like she "refuses to deny it" among those who are having trouble trusting her. Like, just say "Those claims are ridiculous and utterly desperate. Anyway... [back to topic]"

I do love the idea of Trump wandering the country for another 10 (or 5 or 2 or however long he lives) years, ranting and insisting he's the real president.

there aren't enough hours in the day for her to deny all of trump's lies.

Personally, I'm pretty pleased that some of these 'revolution and assassination' psychos are feeling emboldened enough to identify themselves to the media. I'm sure that various agencies will be keeping a watchful eye on their activities.

Like, just say "Those claims are ridiculous and utterly desperate. Anyway... [back to topic]"

yea i also wish she dismissed those claims in better way

i think dropping a "donald clearly has no idea what he's talking about" here and there would've been nice and effective

http://www.wsj.com/articles/some-undecided-voters-turn-on-donald-trump-over-rigged-claims-1476935176

“If I had to choose, I guess I would rather end up getting stuck with Hillary,” he added. “I disagree with just about everything she says, but that’s politics. Trump—he’s just dangerous.”

Expect to see this line parrotted for the next few days: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/441269/hillary-clinton-2002-george-w-bush-was-selected-not-elected

i think dropping a "donald clearly has no idea what he's talking about" here and there would've been nice and effective

― marcos

She did look genuinely horrified when she called Trump's elections remark "horrifying."

betsy mccaughey is such a wreck, it's incredible that anyone, even trump, could have surrogates this bad

Heh, "dropping a Donald" would be a good euphemism for taking a shit.

there aren't enough hours in the day for her to deny all of trump's lies.

― fat fingered algorithm (rushomancy), Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:38 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm well aware of Gish Gallop but these two key Trump claims I felt were important for her to say something almost as succinct as "lol bullshit" before going back on topic

And her dancing around the pay to play question in such a guilty way looked awful. I could just feel all the Berniebros in the country freaking out at that moment.

Analysis in NYTimes:

In the third and final presidential debate, Mrs. Clinton outmaneuvered Mr. Trump with a strategy that relied on the mocking and taunting for which he is known.

Yeah, her mocking and taunting were so relentless, just a total throw down, they are totally the same, these two.

They're saying she counted on him being mocking and judo'd it

he's saying "big league" but it sounds like "bigly" bc long island or whatever so ppl pretend he says "bigly"

― Clay, Wednesday, October 19, 2016 9:29 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

catching up on the thread and want to go on record that the trashfire donald is from queens, long island is many things that are not complimentary but it should not have cheeto jeezus on its conscience

basically him being from queens is the garbage rosetta stone that explains every garish and vomitous aspect of his personality

https://twitter.com/TheFix/status/789090575249125376

This GIF pretty much says it all.

this is the funniest/weirdest/most pathetic thing about what i read over at The_Donald --- these dorks get so fuckin fired up about the supposed ~potency~ of their talking points, and even talk about them like they've picked up a legendary weapon in some loot drop

Yes, whether it is the O'Keeffe thingy, wikileaks, pneumonia, FBI, Benghazi, Foster, Whitewater... they all seem to think that if the low info voters were only really allowed to KNOW the TRUTH it would be over for her. Ignoring that everybody's heard all this shit already and it's a collective yawn. (Not that she's perfect or defensible on every count - merely that the accumulated mass of it hasn't sunk her yet, and won't now.)

In contrast, the same doodz hasten to preemptively declare each new Trump scandal as a nothingburger, with the cherry on top of "wow, the left must really be getting desperate; clearly their internal polls are tanking."

I would have liked Hillary to call out Trump on shit like "Obama's regime" and "your president" but I guess she's already called him a racist

fwiw I thought Wallace was terrible, his idea of fairness is to lob an equal number of loaded questions to both candidates. So he throws wikileaks crap at Clinton, and then turns around and calls Trump a liar. Fairness! Also anyone who trots out that nonsense about Social Security/Medicare going bankrupt and the horrors of the nat'l debt is living in some early 80s fantasy where those "issues" haven't yet been thoroughly discredited. Fuck that guy.

neither of those programs is going to go bankrupt and it *does not matter* how big a percentage of GDP the nat'l debt it

is

We should start calling it the "national market capitalization" instead of the "national debt"

what is the hillary's ppl incited violence at trump's rallies thing even based on? What's the cold light of day version of it?

One of the things that has stood out the most in these debates is how clearly uncomfortable Trump is in his own skin, and the extent to which his awkward and insecure body language belies his projected self-image as a hypercompetent bazillionaire amazing winner of everything ever (assuming one couldn't see through the smokescreen of bloviation to the wounded five-year-old at his core). I find it so hard to believe that people are so bad at spotting these tells that he'd actually ever impressed or intimidated anyone in a business context.

O'Keefe video apparently has Hillary campaign people secretly recorded admitting they've arranged for it. I have not watched it.

xp

PROJECT VERITAS

I KNOW A LATIN WORD

She barely went into his Trump Foundation bullshit and could have

I thought what she did do - bring up the painting of himself that he bought, and ask "Who does that?" - was much more powerful. Hammered home the pathetic-narcissistic-clown aspect. I bet that hurt him badly, and led as much as anything else to the "nasty woman" bit at the end.

he's got my vote 👍

Let's remember: very few people watched the debate. "Trump wont accept the result and called Hillary a nasty woman" is the only thing that matters.