Second Banana Syndrome: Members of a group that would have been the main attraction had s/he not had the misfortune of being in a group with a bonafide genius, visionary and / or natural-born star

vicki peterson

chris hillman

BYrds had several didn't they. Gene Clark , David Crosby, Gram Parsons.
THough not sure to what extent McGuinn eclipsed Clark. I think Gene was the one getting the songwriting royalties early on and driving around in a much better vehicle than his bandmates.

vicki peterson

― Thus Sang Freud, Monday, September 5, 2016 6:31 AM (thirty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm. Ive been saying this for years! Not that she was overshadowed by Hoffs, necessarily (though she was), but that she is way underrated.

This thread doesn't work that well with jazzmen unless you're talking about really long running working groups , and I can't think of any that fit.

― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, September 5, 2016 2:56 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Do you not agree that McCoy Tyner fits the bill? I don't know any of his albums as a leader, yet when I hear him play, I always think "goddamn, that guy's got it," you know? Guess I should eventually listen to one of his albums.

only tyner record i've heard is inner voices, and it is a JAM. i should probably listen to some of his others- he's got lots as a leader and they tend to be pretty acclaimed.

Lou Barlow

lou barlow in dinosaur jr

xpost lol

xpost
There are lots of very good Tyner albs under his own name - his first Blue Note rec as a leader, The Real McCoy, is a stone classic, and recognised as such.

John Gilmore. Fantastic tenor saxophonist who never got half the recognition he should have because he only made one or two albums outside of Sun Ra's band.

^^^^^^^^

Great McCoy Tyner albums:

The Real McCoy
Tender Moments (does NOT live up to its title - it's a nonet session, not a ballad date, and it rips)
Asante
Extensions (with Alice Coltrane!)
Sahara

i'm listening to "supertrios" right now. it's some hot shit, "consensus" in particular.

Inception! One of my favorite piano trio records.

lee ranaldo (kinda)

Colin Moulding
Tobin Sprout

I've heard people argue that the reason George Harrison wrote such great songs when he was in the Beatles was because being around Lennon and McCartney was such a creatively stimulating environment to be in, so I wonder how many of these folks were as good as they were because they were in a group with a "bonafide genius, visionary and / or natural-born star", rather than it being a misfortune (or I guess the reverse could be true as well, some of the first bananas were only bonafide geniuses because they had the superficially less impressive side(wo)men with them)

Well, yeah! Which is why the mention of Colin Moulding in this thread tickles me so much. I honestly don't think XTC would have amounted to much if Moulding had been the lead vocalist and main songwriter from the beginning.

The real XTC answer is, of course, Barry Andrews.

Ron Mael.

xpost I have heard some of the songs that Col did for XTC consideration. They got offered to us if we wanted them. We didn't.

I was mulling the same thing with regard to George Harrison. I do think being in that environment generally must have stimulated his slow-blooming gifts - not just being around John and Paul, but their whole recording-studio crew, the environment of creativity, even if he wasn't always invited to contribute his full capacity to it...surely must have helped ideas and possibilities percolate. And even if he only got a song or two per album, he also had these great musicians backing him up, contributing great parts and for the most part not slacking off.

Don't know if any of that would have been the case in some other Merseybeat band where he was the star and/or chief songwriter. I bet he would have done okay, as many other decent-sized talents who happened to be from Liverpool and playing the right kind of music did. Dunno if he'd have gotten the chance to flex his genius muscles though.

George may seem like an obvious answer here but excepting maybe a third of ATMP, dude's solo album track record is pretty abysmal. Have you listened to Somewhere In England lately? WOOF. To me, George is the very definition of the opposite of second banana syndrome: he shone brightest in the shadows.

Denny Laine

Pretty sure that's a McCartney composition

And yeah jazz may not yield the best examples here. McCoy Tyner was just as great as Coltrane in a band of equals (fwiw my all-time McCoy is 1975's "Trident"). But Miles Davis playing with Charlie Parker is certainly an example of a second banana that could no way ever outplay or display more star quality than the leader.

Chris Bell

Gone Troppo is Harrison's masterpiece imo, not sure what that says about the environment in which he most excelled: it's generally seen as a tossed off contractual observation iirc?

(getting off topic, sorry)

observation = obligation, obviously

George may seem like an obvious answer here but excepting maybe a third of ATMP, dude's solo album track record is pretty abysmal. Have you listened to Somewhere In England lately? WOOF. To me, George is the very definition of the opposite of second banana syndrome: he shone brightest in the shadows.

― Wimmels, Monday, September 5, 2016 5:20 PM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

For me, it's...

Search: All Things Must Pass and Thirty-Three & 1/3, and maybe two tracks each from Living In The Material World, Dark Horse and Extra Texture and 'Blow Away'

Destroy: every fucking thing else.

Richie Furay in Buffalo Springfield.

xp i kind of like his posthumous record

ATMP is more than 1/3 good! I think his solo career in general suffered from "blowing it all on a multi-disc monument, then hitting a creative dry spell" syndrome. As is usually the case with these things, it's hard to imagine ATMP without its sprawl, but if he had made it a densely-packed single album of only classics, he'd still have had some very solid tunes left over. Replace the dreary/dirgey/aimless B-tracks on the next couple records with those songs, and suddenly I think his whole discography looks different.

But yeah - he's definitely far, far less consistent than the other solo Beatles, and I think most of the stuff he was really great at was not the kind of thing that suggests someone who would be the main attraction in a group with no other leading lights. He had a number of great songs, yes, but he was not a great songwriter on demand. His voice has a distinctive quality and fits a lot of his material, but he's not who you think of when looking for a great lead vocalist. He's really most essential as a guitarist (see: George Harrison as a Lead Guitarist -- What do you all think?), and as someone who could contribute a few good songs reliably - kind of a perfect band member in that way. That he also produced some classic songs, much more infrequently, is the cherry on top.

many many xposts but the first Preston School of Industry album is incredibly good, better than Terror Twilight, better than Stairs' Pavement tunes.

The second one, if I remember right, sucks.

I always get suspicious when I hear people say "George Harrison is my favourite Beatle" ... I always get the impression they've never once endured sitting through Dark Horse or Extra Texture.

why would anyone listen to solo beatles albums

bcz they rule

give my regards to broad street

why would anyone listen to solo beatles albums

Alex Lifeson is really the best example of this. How many others trios are there where the guitarist is the least recognizable/least acclaimed?

^^The Police, maybe.

In that Sting is STING and Stewart Copeland is a frequently cited influence by drummers of a certain age.

Huw 'Bunf' Bunford

Jon Venables

Simon Quinlank

xps Good call on The Police, exact same situation.

I'd argue The Meters have the same situation (the guitarist being the least acclaimed member). Certainly it's a rare case where the drummer is clearly the biggest star of the band; other such cases usually have the drummer singing too.

see also: gtr-bass-drums bands where the sole guitarist is the least visible and/or 'important' member

Benjamin Orr
also, I think either John Deacon or Roger Taylor from Queen might qualify

Eno was forced out of Roxy Music because he had essentially become the main attraction of Roxy Music by the release of For Your Pleasure (Ferry took the hump at punters chanting for Eno during gigs and laid down a 'him or me' ultimatum to the band). I don't believe in genius but if I did I've have no hesitation in calling Eno one. And he was clearly the premier visionary - in musical terms at least - in Roxy Music. Ferry being more of a great entertainer/conceptualist/singer. (Ferry may well be a natural born star I will concede though.)

xp i remember sometime in the 90s ferry saying (in mojo iirc) that he considered for your pleasure their best album, that it was the "most complete" or something like that.

Wimmels Ren wrote the rhymes for all three on that record

Xp

Wimmels Ren wrote the rhymes for all three on that record

Xp

― Οὖτις, Monday, September 5, 2016 5:09 PM (one minute ago)

Nah, The DOC was the chief ghostwriter on EFIL4ZIGGAN

Ah couldnt recall if DOC was still around at that pt

nat adderley (or zawinul) probably a better example than cannonball

His first solo tour, in 1975, lost $75,000.

i saw that show! calderone concert hall. the internet tells me it was 3/26/75. there was, like, no one there. it was earthshakingly loud, is about all i remember.

You got to think The Who perhaps had other plans eventually for "Heaven and Hell" as they opened with it live for a couple years and it didn't end up on the original Live at Leeds. Never know if "Heaven and Hell" and "Naked Eye" would have been put out as a 2LP version of Live at Leeds in 1970 at the time they would have become classic rock nuggets like "Young Man Blues".

Another angle to take on this threads question would be to look at bands that lost a member to death that took a perhaps a different pathway because of their loss. I'd think Metallica's story would be quite a bit different if Cliff Burton didn't die in the wreck, if nothing else, there probably would have been bass on And Justice for All. I'd think Terry Kath's death probably took out the last of the rock guitar out of Chicago's music and left the mike for Peter Cetera to become the primary lead singer.

I'm sure getting the short shrift from guitarists in Sabbath and Rainbow definitely was the reason Ronnie James Dio named his band after himself...after all kinda hard to get fired from the band when it's named after you. And after Dio had success, he really did not let the sidemen share the cash and/or credit according to what I have read. Ozzy was even more mercenary in his solo career, which according to some started as a band and evolved to the singer's name prominent once the record came out. Same time period and David Coverdale probably needs to thank his bank book that he did the two albums with John Sykes, even though he fired him before touring the second album came out when he started to sell out stadiums. I'm sure this is of the same angst from earlier dealings with Blackmore etc.

But guitarist Jimmy Nolen seems the least well-known, despite creating a new language for the electric guitar, starting with "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag.
n

--Nolen was with JB for only five years and died in 1983. Most Brown fans know him, but probably lower profile than Clyde or Fred or Maceo in the greater world. Shoulda been at least as big a solo star as Little Beaver...

Wimmels Ren wrote the rhymes for all three on that record

Xp

― Οὖτις, Monday, September 5, 2016 5:09 PM (one minute ago)

Nah, The DOC was the chief ghostwriter on EFIL4ZIGGAN

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Monday, September 5, 2016 8:13 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post P

Didn't know this!

Ren and DOC always shared writing for Dre it's easy to tell who wrote what

In any case disagree strongly to me Efil is Ren's record, AND I think his stuff like If it Ain't Ruff is way undervalued on Compton

Also Shockm of the Hour is the super great

Godamnit this sucks I can't even believe someone would say Ren is bad

No one's saying that! But there's no way he could have carried a group any more than PMD or Sen Dog could have (ok that last one was a cheap shot)

And I really like Efil4zaggin, and want to go back to it now and try to figure out what Dre verses were written by DOC and which were written by Ren. I'm assuming DOC was still ghostwriting for Dre on The Chronic, since he appears on that album (which makes the "like my nigga DOC: No One Can Do It Better" line pretty funny, if DOC wrote it about himself)

i saw that show! calderone concert hall. the internet tells me it was 3/26/75. there was, like, no one there. it was earthshakingly loud, is about all i remember.

― Thus Sang Freud, Monday, September 5, 2016 8:37 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ha, no way! From what I've read, the tour was a mix of empty headlining venues and arena slots opening for Humble Pie. Also, the guitarist in Entwistle's band imitated Townshend's stage moves, upstaging John in his own band.