Star Trek: Classic or Dud?

Between shoe-horning Guinan into meeting Mark Twain and Captain Kirk, it's weird that the Mark Twain thing was handled better story-wise.

Guinan second least favorite TNG character.

guinan's whole approach to talking to and helping ppl always struck me as v condescending

she has like a millennium worth of experience and isn't just going "fuck you dumbass ppl" all the time so I have to give her credit

all the women in the show in TNG were criminally underwritten or condescended to, to the point where they were protesting, having their parts deleted or cut down due to their complaints, or leaving the show during the first few seasons!

The Greatest Gen podcast has the advantage over Mission Log on that each ep is only 30 mins or so and they take great delight in ripping on how dumb/sexist/racist the show could get early on as well as how seriously the Mission Log guy take it.

Also, pointing out the surprisingly fun acting scenes you'd sometimes get even in the beginning, like when Riker and Guinan are showing Wesley how to flirt, and clearly enjoying themselves.

Yeah, the early writing and production was bad enough that 2 out of the 3 female leads quit after S1, and Troi was underwritten so much that Guinan as bartender was far better ship's counselor than the actual ship's counselor.

tbf a number of bartenders are better counselors than some actual counselors

the early writing still produced some classics and later writing still produced some god-awful stories (looking at you, season 5).

Gates McFadden didn't quit, she was fired. What a dumb decision -- I agree that she was one of the best actors in the show.

That part I didn't know; I thought she left of her own volition. So they fired her, brought in Pulaski for a season, then switched back?

agree that McFadden was one of the better actors in the cast and kind of underserved by the material she was given

she gets even less to do in the movies. riker at least gets a joystick.

I think the whole cast is pretty iconic and great, even Troi and Wesley.

I've always found it weird that Riker and Picard, while both awesome characters, don't really have much chemistry with one another. There's a great episode in the first season (!), 11001001, where they get drunk on the holodeck together. But the relationship never really gets developed.

It's not a flaw, I suppose, because I kind of enjoy the sang froid between them, and better that than some sort of bro thing. But it is odd.

that's true I never felt like I really understood their relationship. do they even like each other? is there a rivalry, or more of an admiring son/father thing? But there's nothing. It's like they exist in parallel universes.

always thought it was a father/son or mentor/mentee relationship. a lot was made on the show on the fact that Riker had many opportunities to leave and become Captain on his own starship, but preferred to stay on as #1

#1 dad issues
https://67.media.tumblr.com/aa9e166d7b09027bca8bfc6d1ef6f2e2/tumblr_n0mxim20MY1ree9sso1_400.gif

Now I want to watch that episode again.

I watched some TNG episode last night where Riker falls in love with a member of an androgynous species and oh man the painful conversations about sex and gender interspersed with the usual nonsensical technobabble about mapping null space (ooh I see what you guys did there) - it was fun in a goofy way but also very rmde and I didn't make it to the end

they definitely could've done a lot better. but considering the time it was probably the best they could do... remember the flap over one lesbian kiss in DS9 a few years later?

lol no

yeah it could've been a LOT worse, it's just amusingly anachronistic now. and tbf the null space = mysterious androgyne analogy was kinda clever/not as hamfistedly obvious as it could've been

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/b/b9/Riker_imitates_Picard.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150101040458&path-prefix=en

http://m.imgur.com/gallery/Ov2P5pf

Trying to find the shit-eating grin Riker delivers and this is the closest thing.

omg that picard look

was going to nominate Lwxana Troi for best character earlier but I couldn't even type it with a straight face

I read on the Internet so it must be true but Jonathan Frakes lobbied to have the person playing the androgyne be a guy, but he was overruled.

I love that episode! It's like Riker's Casablanca. The gender politics are crude, but by TNG's nugatory standards it's a pretty good effort. The ending is great. Come on! If it's not completely ridiculous but strangely moving at the same time, it's not TNG.

I found a pretty good pre-beard shit eating grin:

http://startrekcolours.tumblr.com/image/129525683395

That is:

http://67.media.tumblr.com/0744879bd3f183bc1effa2c2b68c86f8/tumblr_nuzz6y1MEv1ufg9h8o1_1280.jpg

The ending is great.

lol I wouldn't know

The ending is a full on everybody fucks up and nobody's happy unhappy ending - i.e. every X-Files ending - but unusual for TNG.

just read the wiki summary yeah that does sound uncharacteristic

This ha been mentioned elsewherr(the Greatest Gen guys do a lot) but it's kind of funny/sad that the culture at the time sorta prevented a lot of the clueless writers of accurately writing dialogue for the culture the show supposedly had. You have multiple middle-aged guys with a pretty sexist mindset trying to write for a post-patriarchal society,

it has to be reiterated that of the tv shows, Enterprise has the worst theme music. it might be one of the worst tv songs, period

i literally couldn't believe it was the theme music for a star trek show the first time i heard it

originally written for the patch adams movie

I think I blocked out that fact. It makes sense, but I try to believe they commissioned a complete dud instead of using something from... oh god

Actor Simon Pegg, who played engineer Montgomery Scott in Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness later said that he had never watched Enterprise due to the song, which he described as "dreadful soft-rock" and "probably the most hideous Star Trek moment in history."

wait... Brannon Braga is only 51 years old?!? so when he was 35 or 36 he thought that was a reasonable song

what the fuck

I dig the Enterprise theme. I guess it's not longer ok to like things ironically? But that stupid, terrible song always cheers me up. It's less boring than the Voyagerr theme, at least.

you can like it however you want, I want to peel my ears off

i love the voyager & ds9 themes they're so big and hamfisted and rousing

at their worst you're thinking "what is up with all these horns" and "this is the least bombastic bombast"

What TNG's theme is the hamfisted bombastic one! I love it btw.

maybe I should have said "least bombastic attempt at being bombastic" to be more clear, re: DS9/Voyager

The problem uniting DS9, Voyager and Enterprise is that all three themes are too *slow*

I guess DS9 works well as a mood-setter though

It's super weird when the TNG theme opens Star Trek: The Motion Picture

DS9 theme is my favorite. Until it changed.

season 1-3 ds9 theme is the best star trek theme yes. season 4-7 version drops a few places in the rankings

ok, the st: enterprise episodes in the dark mirror universe start off with a good joke

they recreate the first contact scene (from the movie), only after zefram cochrane attempts to do the vulcan greeting and fails, he whips out a shotgun and takes out the vulcan

the rest of his people then storm the ship

woah...

just saw TNG season 5 ep 18 Cause and Effect. it's an amazing time travel episode that kinda feels like Twilight Zone or X-Files in places. easily in the top 5 eps of the entire series. really surprised by the quality of this episode since season 5 has some real stinkers.