The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

I think it's more a willful ignorance, same mentality people use to justify living insanely unhealthy lifestyles because they eat a salad now and then. any Republican U.S. senator who says anything bad about guns will not be a U.S. senator for long

...and again

A man in upstate New York was charged with murder on Monday in the killing of a woman who was in a car that mistakenly drove into his driveway, officials said.

The woman and the three friends she was with never got out of the car on Saturday night, Jeffrey J. Murphy, the Washington County sheriff, said at a news conference. They were turning around after realizing their error when the man, Kevin Monahan, 65, stepped out of his house, in Hebron, N.Y., and fired at least two shots at the car, the sheriff said.

Beyond the fact that many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion, the more basic assumption that does not get nearly enough examination is that if someone breaks into your home, they deserve to die. This is pretty much accepted as straight truth.

It's wild how so many crimes elevate to the standard of a death penalty case when the decision is left to the armed populace.

my cousin once lost an old friend (in Florida, and after Stand Your Ground was passed). the neighbor's kid was terrorizing his mother, slashing her tires, defacing her house, ringing her doorbell at like 3 am, etc constantly for months. the friend came over and told his mother he'd handle it. admittedly, did not make the best decisions - dressing in all black, carrying a camcorder, and entering the neighbor's yard to try and film the kid in the act. the father came outside with a shotgun and without warning, just blew him away. friend was unarmed. neighbor was never charged.

yeah ok strange people shouldn't be dressed in all back in your yard but doesn't there have to be some duty of danger? or does everybody think it's the wild wild west where literally everybody is armed and can draw a gun in 0.1 seconds and that if you don't act immediately they are going to cap you?

it's very much the latter

the caveat being that it is always worthwhile to ask which people get a pass for randomly shooting someone and which people are acceptable victims

Another terrible thing about SYG laws is that since the cases so often hinge on conflicting accounts of who did what first, they incentivize making sure you not only shoot but kill the other party. Leave no witnesses. Whoever survives gets to say it was self-defense.

many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion, the more basic assumption that does not get nearly enough examination is that if someone breaks into your home, they deserve to die

In Cold Blood sold millions of copies. When Richard Speck murdered eight student nurses Time magazine's cover story came complete with diagrams of the apartment, a minute-by-minute timeline, and pages full of lurid prose. The more frightening and irrational a home invasion is, the more the media burns it into the nation's brains, simply because it inspires irrational panic-fear.

Something similar happens with stories of animal attacks. People who spend little time in the wilderness vastly overestimate the likelihood they'll be attacked by a bear or a cougar, or bitten by a rattlesnake.

Gun manufacturers have learned that constantly stimulating those fears is like owning a gold mine that never gets exhausted.

and on and on we go

https://abc13.com/woodlands-elite-cheerleaders-shot-shooting-at-heb-in-elgin-texas-payton-washington-pedro-tello-rodriguez-jr-arrested/13150502/

many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion

I think this is a huge part of the problem, this fundamental misinformation, stoked by the usual suspects. I saw a survey once (or at least think I did, lol) that revealed conservatives (maybe everyone?) wildly overestimated the number of gay people in America at something like 25%, and did the same for other minorities (Blacks, Jews, etc.) to a crazy overinflated degree. If you're already paranoid and think "they" are out to get you, or "they" are out of control, and you think "they" are exponentially more in number than "they" actually are, then not only are you probably prone to be even more paranoid and afraid, you might be even more primed to protect/defend yourself from the promised/threatened/foretold inevitable. And what better way to do that than arming yourself for the inevitable day they come knocking at your door?

It's a perverse self-fulfilling prophecy potentiated by those that would stand to profit (both financially and politically). I saw something yesterday in one of the Jan. 6 cases where one of the defendants claimed he came armed to a protest because there were supposedly 1000 antifa en route by bus, which is fundamentally ridiculous ... unless you believe it.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/15/americans-misestimate-small-subgroups-population

That's the one, thanks!

Man I looked at this thread and thought "who the fuck on ILX would think we'd have to DEBATE this shit, even in 2007?".

Not surprised at the answer.

lol Manalishi/adultery really was one of the worst

many gun owners wildly overestimate the likelihood that they will be the victims of a home invasion

just to add to josh's xp response, which is otm: even in the case of actual home invasion, carjacking, etc. -- take your pick of *potentially* violent crimes -- it is not remotely self-evident that the perpetrator is looking to cause bodily injury or kill another person. that's one of the (many) things that drives me nuts about this debate, the moving of the goal posts. like those of us who advocate for gun control shouldn't actually have to convince people that there is no threat of being the victim of crime. obv those threats are exaggerated and made a bogeyman to an absurd degree by the rhetoric on the other side, but even if they weren't it still wouldn't justify gun violence in the vast majority of circumstances. the rare case of actual home burglars or whatever are just looking to get your (presumably insured) stuff, not kill you.

That's exactly correct, for the most part they probably are trying to avoid the occupants altogether, and are probably not doing anything worthy of being murdered.

kind of incredible what an aggressive action door-knocking is now interpreted as.

so more about the 84 year old piece of shit who shot Ralph Yarl

Lester has told police he and the teen did not exchange words before he fired at him through a locked glass door.

Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN.

Lester thought Ralph was trying to break in to the home and was “scared to death” due to the boy’s size, according to the document.

and you let this guy go home a mere few hours into a 24 hour hold without charging him.

"boy's size" a p obvious dog whistle

Over coffee, Eisenhower took Warren by the arm and asked him to consider the perspective of white parents in the Deep South. “These are not bad people,” the president said. “All they are concerned about is to see that their sweet little girls are not required to sit in school alongside some big black bucks.”

kind of incredible what an aggressive action door-knocking is now interpreted as.

Over coffee, Eisenhower took Warren by the arm and asked him to consider the perspective of white parents in the Deep South. “These are not bad people,” the president said. “All they are concerned about is to see that their sweet little girls are not required to sit in school alongside some big black bucks.”

The infrequency of home invasion / hot prowl break ins which result in homicide, where homicide was part of the intent, is such that whenever it does happen it's national news. Like what happened in Idaho a few months ago with those college students, for example. That's not to diminish the nightmarish nature of such a scenario, but it's so damn rare. I think more valuable than stocking up on weaponry is just secure your home really well and don't make it an easy target.

However I guess having lived for a number of years in a couple different neighborhoods of Los Angeles which were heavy on the burglaries and having known people whose homes were broken into while they were there, I also understand the fear that can come from having such a thing happen.

tbf to Eisenhower we still don't know if that quote's apocryphal, for Warren hated his guts.

Yeah actual home invasions are very rare, and the vast majority of the ones that happen are people who know each other. (Domestic violence, people stealing pills or cash from grandma, etc.) Which are still bad obviously, but the risk from random people deciding to come to your specific home and break in with intent to do harm is so small that taking any precautions beyond locking your doors is a hyperbolic overreaction.

And burglars usually try to hit when nobody's home, though obviously sometimes it happens while people are. I've known people who it's happened to, but when they yelled the person(s) ran away.

🚨 The grandson of the man who shot Ralph Yarl blames the NRA:

"Ludwig said his grandfather had been immersed in 'a 24-hour news cycle of fear and paranoia.' 'And then the NRA pushing the ‘stand your ground’ stuff and that you have to defend your home.'"https://t.co/fCA2VCvnAn

— Peter Ambler (@PeterMAmbler) April 20, 2023

^^^

good

Fucking gun in some kid's backpack went off in a classroom in one of my sons' schools today. It didn't hit anybody but the classroom teacher was "grazed" by shrapnel or something. The school went into lockdown, security got the kid and arrested him (just assuming it's a "him"), and they dismissed everyone and sent them home early. My kid was unfazed — he was in a different part of the building, didn't hear the gunshot or anything — but christ alfuckingmighty.

what the FUCK

first of all, I'm glad your kid is alright, and I'm glad everybody else is mostly alright. but how is this bullshit acceptable? why are people supposed to be expected to live w/ this shit

It is so not acceptable, I'm so mad about it. Especially because earlier this week I had to sit through a goddamn county commission meeting where a group of local high school students was begging them to go on record supporting some version of a red-flag law or really anything at all to limit the flow of guns and they harrumphed a lot about "freedom" and "My family came to this great country 7 generations ago" and voted down the resolution 7-3. Goddammit.

jesus christ, I’m so sorry. that’s a nightmare

I'm so sorry, tips.

really glad to hear no one was hurt.

just horrible, glad your kid is ok tipsy

And what made that kid think he needed to bring a pistol to school? Just showing off?

It was apparently a 14-year-old, a 9th-grader, god knows what or why. There are reports out there that he had actually posted photos of him with the gun at school on social media — I haven't seen those posts, so I don't know if it's true, but most likely he was just being a dumb little shit and showing off.

there's no cure for adolescent brains, but there are gun safes and trigger locks

And prosecuting the shit out of whoever is supposed to be the legal owner and caretaker of that thing.

Ugh

knowing how casual many gun owners are about their handguns, the kid probably just lifted it out of the glove box of his dad's car because his dad never looks in there anyway

Wow

Today is the 11-year mark of Sandy Hook and still nothing has changed. We just released this video @DemocracyMoms with our partners called Thoughts & Prayers. We hope you follow us there and donate to the cause to help us get this on the air. #gunreform https://t.co/DY98A3nvEB pic.twitter.com/ftbg0Soj96

— Mothers4Democracy/MothersAgainstGregAbbott (@MomsAGAbbott) December 14, 2023