Ongoing U.S Police Brutality and Corruption Discussion Thread

White people aren't used to being excluded.

Black Lives Matter is not an exclusionary statement; it is a statement of focus.

― volumetric god rays (DJP), Monday, July 11, 2016 8:48 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That was kinda the point I was glibly trying to make. Some members of an unquestioned majority will see any movement that specifically addresses a demographic other than their own as inherently exclusionary. Which seems like one of the central reasons why BLM became a movement.

The "all lives matter" people are ridiculous and I don't know why we are still talking about them. I think they are mostly made up of white grandmas who don't want to face the possibility that the police aren't the good guys and well.... Ok. BLM won't be stopped by clueless people like that. The barriers to police reform are republican politicians and the police themselves.

Stop saying stupid shit like this. The people saying All Lives Matter look exactly like you and come from all across the country; hell, some of them look exactly like me. Turning them into a mythological strawman group so you can ignore them contributes nothing other than making yourself feel superior.

My first high school girlfriend is married to a retired police officer and posted the following message this morning, which reveals some interesting information coming from the police perspective of this and shows that a lot of what is missing here is being caused by self-segregation; it's harder to demonize a group of people when you know some of them (also fuck off if you're going to snipe about typos):

OK I'm sick in the heart right now with the state of racial affairs and attacks on the police in our country. I'm a white middle aged woman (shit when did that happen?) who some will think what does she know? Well here it goes . . .

Dan Perry was one of my first friends, not related to me or thrust upon me because our parents were friends. We met at the age of 4 in Ms. T_____'s preschool. We rode the school bus together discussing Tom and Jerry cartoons everyday K-2nd grade. Then our buss route split. We didn't meet again until 6th grade when my mom took me out of private school and placed me in public school with Dan. It took us until 7th grade to figure out we actually new each other before 6th grade. When Dan lost his older brother in 9th grade some very disgusting boys in school drew a nasty picture of the incident and threw it at me in science class. See everybody knew I really liked Dan, he was now my boyfriend and not just my friend. He was one of the very few students of color in my home town. Using racial slurs to describe the horrible accident his brother had encountered, the boys laughed handing me the picture. (Oh they were white boys.) I threw the picture back at them, tried to slap one, and buzzed out of the room with tears in my eyes hitting the door right as the bell rang to dismiss class. I went to the principals, but because it was my word against 2 boys and I was too emotional and threw the picture back at them, I had lost the evidence. Nothing was done to them, at least by administration nothing was done to them. I believe carma took over with the help of a few friends. This moment was an eye opener and has had lasting effects in my life.

My friend, co-worker, and roomate in college, M______, took me to a local store in Mankato known for following customers of color around to catch them shop lifting. We went in, walked a few isles together picking up a clerk tail, and then split up. She was followed because she was dark skinned Indian (from Guyana). Again had a profound impact on me.

In college, I loudly and verbally admonished 2 white males in the law enforcement program on two separate occasions. One who stood in the student union on campus every day and heckled women on their way to class, work, lunch, whatever. He made rude, gross, verbal advance to my good friend and roommate T_____. When I finished, security was just showing up, and they asked him to leave. BTW he did become a cop but washed out quickly. The second, was a man who stood making comments about a recent rap victim on campus. It was spring and a serial rapest was attacking women at night sometimes following them to their rooms. His latest victim had read hair. He proceeded to make rude comments about firey read headed women. (I was actually waiting for J______ to get out of class with this person, but he was inside talking with a professor at their break time, instead.). I crossed the corridor and using all the courage I could told him exactly what I thought of him, the fact that he was going to be an officer, and that does not sit well with me or help society. I made such a scene that the Law Enforcemnet officers came, listened, then called him into their classroom. I don't know what happened to him, but damn it felt good knowing he knew what I felt. Again these incidents had a profound effect on me.

My husband, JM, became a MN Peace Officer in 1997 for the City of Eagan. He worked the job for 5 years, before leaving the force. He worked the dog shift 11 pm - 7 am. We married in 1999 and I enrolled in the family academy at the PD. A program for mainly spouses of peace officers to teach them about the stressors of the job. On one class night I watched the same training video, which my husband watched when going through his 4 year law enforcement program, that shows officer, after officer, being shot while making a routine traffic stop. We learned that it is the routine traffic stop that is most often the most dangerous for all officers. In that video I watched officers of every color and gender being shot by criminals of every color (most were men though). Again this had a hugely profound effect on me. I've just married this man. You mean I could loose him while he pulls a person over for speeding, a busted tail light, etc. If this happens can I survive it? I had nightmares for 5 years! He was excellent at his job though. He advised the police explorers, helped deliver a few babies, picked up a severed head off the highway, had to tell families their loved ones were never coming home again, placed children with social services (sometimes several times, same kids), investigated suspicious activity complaints (some were nothing, some were not.). He pulled his gun several times (He Never Talked about it!). I didn't find out how many times until after he left the force. His beat included a place known as Westcott Square. This area contained a high percentage of low income or Section 8 housing. When cops showed up (because they were called) The tenants of Westcott (mostly African American, some Somalli, Asian, and white, yelled slurs at all the police on the force not just the white cops. They threw rocks, threatened their lives, spit, etc. But my guy was well trained, he took it all in stride, always did his best to give respect even when he clearly was being disrespected. He talked some about these experiences, but did not dwell on them. He tried to think about those who were grateful for his presence and help rather than those who wanted him dead because he was a white man in blue.

I am aching because I can understand how a cop can freak out when a person who's just told them they have a gun is reaching into their pocket for the permit. I saw a cop on the video killed in a similar curcumstance. Cops deal with mostly criminals who can lie to them strait faced in a calm and respectable tone, and in the next second try to attack them or take their life.

Yet I am also sickened at the thought that an upstanding citizen and yes a man who happens to be black is also dead, Philandro Castille. His trying to comply with the request of license and registration (and his conceal and carry permit) to be presented to police, ended his life.
I won't feel bad for a criminal killed by police no matter what color his skin is! I don't want to throw the book at an officer who asked a person not to move once they learned they had a gun. That's part of thier training!

We need our police departments to screen officers routinely to make sure they are fit for the job. In a country where we have freedom of speech and religion, it's difficult to not have racist individuals end up as cops (Or teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc.). If you are a racist cop, take off the damn blue uniform!!! You can't protect and serve only the parts of society you like. I hurt so bad for the Castille family but I also Ache for the police officer and his family.

To those who disrupted what was suppose to be a peaceful protest on I-94, shame on you!!! Violence is not the answer. There, I've said my thoughts for now. If you read this whole thing sorry it got so long. Dan if you read this and are still reading, know I think of you often and very fondly. You have a beautiful family and I wish you peace and safety.

My biggest takeaways from this are:

- We need to review how police officers are being trained.
- People with deep ties to the police are not a monolith and communication with them is a must.

Not all white people were on board with the civil rights movement and that was ok. You don't want racists or crypto racists on the side of an anti-racist movement anyway; the struggle is not to be inclusive toward them. The point is to change society.

re: talking to "all lives matter" people, it seems like there's a difference between altering the central message of the movement to be palatable to them (which I don't think anyone here is advocating) and, say, white people pushing back when their white relatives and friends make "all lives matter" arguments, that seems like a situation where it maybe *is* appropriate to use "there is no only in front of BLM" arguments, and these may be ppl who have some knee jerk defensiveness or have swallowed the "all lives matter" line without thinking that much about it, but could still potentially be talked round into being supportive of BLM and their goals even if they are maybe not going to "join the movement" in an active way.

soref, i agree with you in theory, but in practice i've had to stop talking to p. much all of my "all lives matter" friends & family. in some cases, "all lives matter" does reflect a sincere political naivete, an indicator of a sheltered life, that, you know, is educable. in other cases, however, "all lives matter" is a statement masking a deeper, apparently irremediable sickness. you start probing it further and you find people who are deeply and genuinely disturbed, people who are insistent that they are perfectly fine and that it's everybody else who's the problem. nothing i can do about that one. i have to cut them off.

In a general sense, I feel like fostering understanding and curbing knee-jerk divisiveness is a net positive. I do have a hard time interacting with 'all lives matter' people but I'm trying to remember that people have different experiences and different levels of exposure to people and ideas outside of their own sphere. Sitting with those people and trying to explain to them why BLM is a thing, whether you're ultimately successful or not, feels much more constructive than just saying, "shut up, you ignorant douchebag." It's tough to navigate these minefields but it feels worth it. And as a white person who other white people are more likely to speak candidly wrt their thoughts on these issues, I feel kinda duty-bound to make the effort.

But, yeah, I'm talking more about people who are ignorant rather than hateful. I don't know how to engage with the latter and don't feel particularly inclined to do so.

xpost - that was a good post DJP

that WSJ "blue feed, red feed" thing doesn't (and doesn't pretend to) summarize the entirety of facebook. you can't draw broad conclusions about how conservatives use the site from it.

I foolishly engaged with some rando on facebook recently over this and was constantly accused of "parroting arguments" when in fact I was citing statistics &/or referring to high-profile events over here in consensus reality

like he would not acknowledge the existence of local governments pressuring their police forces to make up fiscal deficits thru more aggressive ticketing -- seemingly for no other reason than that this violated his conception of what police officers are/should be doing(?), & 'villified hard-working americans' (his words)

I didn't press the issue much beyond that; all I ever got out of him was "use your brain"/"stop parroting liberal arguments"/"you don't know what you're talking about"

*"acknowledge the existence" should == acknowledge the REALITY

Right-wing media (where I assume shit like that comes from) has gotten really good at teaching their audience to defuse arguments with nonsense.

Is there a thread on the death of logical arguments and the war against experts, etc? I might have to start one if there isn't. It feels like a thing with the capacity to completely destroy civilized society the more it perpetuates.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/11/sports/basketball/liberty-show-solidarity-with-black-lives-matter-in-rare-public-stance.html

this is good -
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/14/where-is-black-lives-matter-headed

jelani cobb has been a strong, consistent voice

A guy my wife went to high school with (conservative, ex-military) posted something some video the other day about how either Sterling or Castile was actually "no angel" and commented how he wished all those whiny liberals would understand things like this and stop the rampant cop-bashing he just knows engaging in.

My wife's best friend went off on him, about how her brother is a cop and her husband's best friend is a cop and while she's super liberal she simply wants police to stop shooting black men for no reason. My wife followed up, and both mentioned how their facebook feeds are an almost complete raging liberal echo chamber and neither had seen single thing expressing anything other than sadness and remorse for the dead police officers despite the overwhelming BLM support.

To his credit he apologized, stating how he hates when people stereotype conservatives and how he was wrong to do the same to liberals, and took down the video.

This is another side of police corruption, but Jackie Wang's new essay on policing, fines, control through debt, and financialization is worth reading:

In Ferguson the excessive use of fines and fees to generate revenue had an overwhelmingly negative impact on the quality of life of Ferguson’s black residents by creating an atmosphere of fear, by disrupting the lives of residents, by ensnaring people in a cycle of financial and legal misery, and by limiting people’s mobility. Municipal fine farming is much more than just an unsavory method of boosting revenue; it essentially turns the space the residents inhabit into a carceral space.

http://loneberry.tumblr.com/post/147199601452/notes-on-municipal-finance-policing-and-the

@DougHenwood
A reminder: being a cop isn't even in top 10 most risky jobs. Know what is? Garbage collection and cab driving.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0013.pdf

Saw a guy getting arrested (unrelated to protests or whatever,afaict, just an apparently mundane arrest) by at least 4 maybe 5 police this morning, also saw at least 2 maybe 3 (weirdly smiling) people with cell phones out, capturing it.

Bratton added: “Thirty-eight percent of our shooting victims refuse to cooperate with the police. They won’t talk with us. Yes, that is frustrating. But no one seems to be marching against that."

wow, fuuuuuck bill bratton (more than usual).

wait so 62% of victims are cooperating?

he's talking about ppl who get shot in general, not ppl shot by cops, right? His command of English (or anything else) is not the best.

and his command of humanity

source:

http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/07/de-blasio-defends-black-lives-matter-as-bratton-asks-where-are-the-anti-crime-protests-103688

morbs is right. it makes more sense in context

I was thinking "there must be some context that makes this wholly monstrous quote slightly less monstrous because even with everything that's happened I refuse to believe that this is where America actually is"

it's still a dumb thing to say but not as dumb as "over a third of the people we shot wouldn't even talk to us, why isn't anyone upset about that"

Yeah it's more like "a lot of people don't seem to trust the police/criminal justice system, what's up with that??!?!?" which is still pretty *rolls eyes* but not monstrous...

They are anti-crime protests, but they happen when the police do something criminal. Hope that helps, Bratton.

But black people aren't talking to them because they're abusing, harassing and killing them, though. Which they ARE protesting in hope of stopping. So his premise is false.

Anybody read this?

yes, very curious.

The circumstances of the shootings should probably be more closely examined. Maybe white people are more likely to be shot while lunging at an officer while black people are more likely to be shot for not being overly-deferential.

still, if you're twice as likely to be engaged by police, you're twice as likely to be shot by police

gave it a quick read and found some flaws bc the following data is missing

1 total amt or percent police stopped african americans
2 out of those stopped how many times did it lead to use of force

The Police Department there allowed the researchers to look at reports not only for shootings but also for arrests when lethal force might have been justified. Mr. Fryer defined this group to include suspects the police charged with serious offenses like attempting to murder an officer, or evading or resisting arrest. He also considered suspects shocked with Tasers.

the whole thing is biased already bc they are basing it on how many times police used force on african americans who were assumed to be guilty of a crime, and if my quick read is correct, they are saying theres bias bc police found african americans guilty of crimes and used force more times compared to other races

so far this just proves that more african americans are prone to commit crimes where police feel force is justified; there needs to be more data to prove whether this force is justified or not. i gave the nber.org data sheet a quick look but couldnt find anything on that

didnt read much more after the first half of the article tho

the woman whose post DJP shared seems intelligent and sincere and caring, but at the same time her post betrays -- perhaps vicariously -- some of the bent logic and worldview of many in law enforcement. for ex.

Cops deal with mostly criminals who can lie to them strait faced in a calm and respectable tone, and in the next second try to attack them or take their life.

cops do not mostly deal w/ hardened criminals of this type. most of the situations they find themselves in are mundane, cast with everyday folks. sure, often they are dealing w/ those people at their worst and/or at exceedingly stressful moments (for many people the very presence of a police officer means the circumstances are stressful). but if cops really project "violent criminal" onto each person they encounter, that right there is a, and perhaps *the*, problem.

you are overlooking the fact that most people are criminals, ie they have broken the law in some way. Cops tend to divide the public into two categories ime: victim or perp, with v little middle ground.

also, in re bratton's comment, people protest crime ALL THE TIME. in chicago ministers and other leaders in the af-am community are constantly leading marches and rallies against black-on-black crime.

this is basically like right-wingers who say "but why won't muslims speak out against terrorism" when they do this. all. the. fucking. time.

xpost

yes that's why i said "hardened criminals"

ah fair enough

Gin and Tacos:

"If every single incident is met with excuses and rationalizations, if there is never an incident that other police look at and collectively say "Holy crap, that's totally unacceptable," then we have to conclude that according to police, no police officer has ever done anything wrong. If they're never willing to look at one another and say "That's wrong" or "You suck at your job," that implies that police are right 100% of the time. That's flatly illogical, and any American in any profession can reach that conclusion without difficulty because the idea of 100% of any group of people being competent is ridiculous on its face. Are 100% of teachers good teachers? Are 100% of your co-workers good at their jobs? Do 100% of cabbies drive well? Are 100% of salesmen honest? Are 100% of stylists giving good haircuts?"

http://www.ginandtacos.com/2016/07/11/normalization-of-deviance/

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13590243_1067400649975148_449837329087130624_n.jpg?oh=73526f93685c064aa6debca9759681d5&oe=57F4D3D4

So many otherwise smart, well-meaing people on FB are sharing this without realizing it's some "if you're not willing to be a cop yourself, don't protest" bullshit.

that's basically at the level of "you don't like your pizza? fine, come back here and make your own pizza."

You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables.

i can make pivot tables. does that count?

I understand these readings of his statement but the most charitable reading of that is "the door is not closed to you." Increased diversity in the Blue Clan - perhaps including skeptics and critics of current police practice - would be a step in the direction of truer community policing and better police-community relations.

As the police become (even more of) a closed, set-apart tribe - as the military has largely become - it will be harder and harder for "them" to understand/sympathize with "us" and "us" to understand/sympathize with "them." And yes I understand that just getting to a point of "not killing quite so many black people" is the more urgent goal - fostering inter-tribal understanding is a kind of airy hazy thing off in the future.

I personally have no interest in joining the police or the military. But I do sometimes think about how the draft-enhanced armies of the past produced a closer resemblance between the military and the population they were ostensibly fighting for. If the police/military hold the populations they serve in contempt (and vice versa), that's a recipe for continued conflict.

How in the hell do these little piss-pants shrinking violets ever become police officers in the first place?

http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-cops-working-lynx-game-walk-out-over-player-comments-warm-up-jerseys/386373171/

Four off-duty Minneapolis police officers working the Minnesota Lynx game at Target Center on Saturday night walked off the job after the players held a news conference denouncing racial profiling, then wore Black Lives Matter pregame warm-up jerseys.

Lt. Bob Kroll, president of the Minneapolis Police Federation, the union that represents rank-and-file officers, praised them for quitting. “I commend them for it,” he said.

Kroll said the four officers also removed themselves from a list of officers working future games. He did not know who the officers were. “Others said they heard about it and they were not going to work Lynx games,” he said.

Asked if other officers will fill in for those who quit, Kroll said, “If [the players] are going to keep their stance, all officers may refuse to work there.”

The three-time WNBA champions wore black T-shirts that read “Change starts with us, justice and accountability” and on the back had Philando Castile’s and Alton Sterling’s names along with “Black Lives Matter” and a Dallas Police Department emblem.

The other thing is that the police in Dallas might be hiring, and might be willing to do community policing, but departments all over the US aren't. A giant part of what BlackLivesMatter says is that police departments should look like the areas they are policing, which they weren't in Ferguson, and aren't in Baton Rouge, just for two examples. And these departments seem more interested in hiring outsiders from white suburbs, then black locals, even of people with bad histories (iirc Darren Wilson had already been part of a local police force that had been completely disbanded due to massive problems including racism, but he was still hired by Ferguson).

giant elephant in the room: how much do cop salaries vary, on a let's say county to county basis, within a typical metro area?