in grrm's hands things were getting progressively more complicated and generally bleaker. this season has developed as if they got a no-bullshit consultant in charged with wrapping up a tidy, happy ending in a couple of seasons. everything is being simplified, loose ends are being carefully harvested, plot lines are being chopped dead with casual efficiency.
Tbf, the same problem has stymied GRRM and his infamous "Meereenese Knot." The way it's summed up in Wiki sounds familiar:
The story of A Dance with Dragons catches up and goes beyond A Feast for Crows around two-thirds into the book, but nevertheless covers less story than Martin had intended, omitting at least one planned large battle sequence and leaving several character threads ending in cliff-hangers. Martin attributed the delay mainly to his untangling "the Meereenese knot", which the interviewer understood as "making the chronology and characters mesh up as various threads converged...
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:07 (seven years ago) link
this season has been way better than the last one imo
― J0rdan S., Monday, 13 June 2016 15:09 (seven years ago) link
lol characters have been dying and coming back since what, the 2nd or 3rd season?
― pratt truss it (dan m), Monday, 13 June 2016 15:09 (seven years ago) link
"i caught up with back 2 back episodes in an insomnia binge and this point bears beating: once you start bringing back the dead, all the stakes fall apart."
One key character came back from the dead and another character came back from the dead earlier to establish the existence of that possibility under perfect circumstances. A few characters have reemerged after being left with uncertain fates. Other than that, it's not like people are just coming back left and right...
― Evan, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:12 (seven years ago) link
polyphonic otm, and sandor's arc appears to be a move from killing for no reason because nothing matters to fighting for... something. he's always secretly believed in chivalry - if a knighthood was truly meaningless he would have accepted one - face turn to GOT paladin is credible.
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Monday, 13 June 2016 15:13 (seven years ago) link
if you believed that all characters we believe to be dead are actually dead and dead forever then that's on you
― J0rdan S., Monday, 13 June 2016 15:13 (seven years ago) link
Somebody upthread said they liked this season because the show stopped taking itself seriously.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:15 (seven years ago) link
j0rdan otm. what is (presumed) dead can never die
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Monday, 13 June 2016 15:15 (seven years ago) link
Question: has GRRM said whether he watches the show or not? Obviously he wrote a few episodes. I know he's working now, supposedly, but is he going to sit out as a show writer from here on out? Does he, in essence, have to avoid spoilers as well, or are they running all changes by him?
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:16 (seven years ago) link
Brienne and jamie meeting eyes tenderly was *kisses fingers* so bad
― 龜, Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark
i ship
― J0rdan S., Monday, June 13, 2016 11:01 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
seconded
― lag∞n, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:19 (seven years ago) link
i love this show but i think it fetishizes the lore of GOT too much to say that the blackfish/river run plot went nowhere
also it's like literally factually wrong i think to say that the arya/faceless man plot went nowhere
― J0rdan S., Monday, 13 June 2016 15:20 (seven years ago) link
and the hound coming back is sick he's an amazing character and also he's noticeably changed so it also has a point!
― J0rdan S., Monday, 13 June 2016 15:21 (seven years ago) link
the "that's on you" argument with this show is kinda mystifying; you think i'm somehow watching it wrong or incapable of following its machinations? It's not been particularly strong this season. It's okay if you don't agree but buttressing the argument against "reviving characters lowers the stakes" with "lol of course people come back from the dead, it's a teevee show" and "it's not like A LOT of people are coming back from the dead" sounds like bad boyfriend syndrome.
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 13 June 2016 15:22 (seven years ago) link
faceless men had a very inert quality as far as the storytelling, like it went somewhere plotwise, but it felt like nothing happened
the hound is rad glad to have him back and on a mission from god
― lag∞n, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:23 (seven years ago) link
the faceless men plot sagged for a lot of its runtime but i feel like the payoff this season has been pretty awesome
― J0rdan S., Monday, 13 June 2016 15:33 (seven years ago) link
preview for next week seems to show where the budget for this season was concentrated.
never been quite drawn in by the arya plotline but i think it could now go in some interesting directions.
spent some time on the wiki last night looking at the different religious system of the world: will be fascinating to see how these play out in the end game, particularly the prophecies of the "lord of light" and the messiah figure.
prior to the high sparrow the faith of the seven seems sorta analogous to a corrupt and non-spiritual catholicism, with maybe the high sparrow as a Luther or Calvin type figure (without the schism...yet).
and not sure what to make of "the old gods." there is obviously a fuzzy line in this universe between the natural and supernatural and yet characters are often portrayed as skeptics of this or that religion, which is weird and interesting. not sure how well martin has thought all this through but it's one of the things im most intrigued by at this point.
― ryan, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:47 (seven years ago) link
I'm kind of glad the extravagant theories weren't right but perhaps it was too plain.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 13 June 2016 08:32
I think part of why I feel like this is because there was at least a good and credible setup for the Waif failing as a faceless person, but somehow Jaqen is quickly convinced that Arya has become a nobody without any real proof. He's a really bad judge of faceless trainees. Which is a shame because I always liked him.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:55 (seven years ago) link
one of the pleasures of fantasy literature is that by constructing a universe from scratch its also able to hint at a pre-modern sense of a deep history that goes back infinitely into time and also a world still more or less available for new discoveries. arya's "what's west of westeros" is great because it widens the scope on an increasingly smaller world (always the saddest parts of fantasy epics is that the worlds becomes overly-explained and small-seeming).
one thing i really admire about martin's world-building is that he kinda did this on two levels: both the deep history and the conspiracies of the previous generation are driving the plot at the same time.
― ryan, Monday, 13 June 2016 15:56 (seven years ago) link
and "it's not like A LOT of people are coming back from the dead" sounds like bad boyfriend syndrome.
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 13 June 2016 16:22
But there isn't a lot.
And while there are loads of unconvincing things, Dany flying back home at a good moment and one giant approving of Jon Snow are not examples of that.
I'd also really like to know how much GRR Martin is giving the show, because if he only gives major plot points then there's possibly going to be a lot of things in the show that go nowhere. I think lots of things will suffer. I've heard most of Tyrion's best parts come from the books so it's not surprising he hasn't really shone recently. Would be funny if George had actually finished both books, given the tv writers a bare minimum and then got more readers from disappointed viewers.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:16 (seven years ago) link
― ryan, Monday, June 13, 2016 11:47 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I like this as well- I think it just illustrates how magic elements are just subtle enough and/or only prevalent among isolated groups given the lack of trustworthy hearsay or documentation, everyone who doesn't see something first hand discounts it as just stories depending on how farfetched those events sound.
― Evan, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:19 (seven years ago) link
meant to delete a few "just"s there
― Evan, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:20 (seven years ago) link
kinda wondering how arya will display the skills she got from the faceless men - maybe a scene where she navigates a laser tripwire field en route to hacking the mainframe for nuclear launch codes
― 龜, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:45 (seven years ago) link
The religious stuff, like the magic stuff (assuming there's a difference), is elided over in a really intriguing but confusing way in this show/story. It's pretty rare to find stories with gods *and* magic, no? That is, there is magic in this world, and there appears to be explicitly successful appeals to gods, but maybe that is actually magic, and there are no gods, because magic would kind of make gods redundant, unless the gods drive the magic. There's stuff that seems to be achieved through prayer/magic - like bringing people back to life - but then that's sometimes done with something approximating science (that is, whatsisname mysteriously bringing back the Mountain vs. Red Witch bringing back Jon Snow, or however Stannis staunched his daughter's greyscale, assuming it did not stop on its own). Have we seen any actual powers conveyed by the Drowned God yet? Certainly the Faceless Men straddle religion and magic. It's all an as yet tangled muddle, not necessarily in a bad way, but certainly supporting tautological arguments of the "this happened because this is what happens in this world" sort.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:53 (seven years ago) link
It's pretty rare to find stories with gods *and* magic, no?
in fantasy lit in general? no it is not rare at all. Foundational texts (Tolkien, Howard, etc.) all feature both.
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:56 (seven years ago) link
But isn't the magic still basically godlike? Like, isn't Gandolf sort of elemental? He's not a mere mortal, at least.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 13 June 2016 16:59 (seven years ago) link
im still thinking that jaqen is playing some longer game
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:03 (seven years ago) link
yeah, I'd be surprised if this is the last time we see him
― silverfish, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:05 (seven years ago) link
well the gods are more or less gone/absent/far removed from the action in LOTR. But their artifacts and servants (such as Gandalf) move the action. With Conan iirc it's more basic tribal magic sort of stuff, a transactional relationship - wizards/sorceresses/whatever are conduits for magical powers from various gods because they give the gods something (sacrifices, etc.)
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:10 (seven years ago) link
jaqen and the faceless men subplot is basically a more violent reimagining of the origin story of every scooby doo villain imo right down to being thwarted by a meddling child
― geometry-stabilized craft (art), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:11 (seven years ago) link
can't help but think the temple of the faceless god maybe has something to do with the banks of braavos, owed tons by the iron crown / lannisters, which debt hasn't been addressed or mentioned for a long time now
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:16 (seven years ago) link
well and in the books there's the whole "jaqen in oldtown" set-up, supposedly trying to get his hands on some secret powerful shit
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:20 (seven years ago) link
the thought had occurred to me that arya lives and becomes "no one" because her list includes people who a lot of other characters would want to see dead, as well as the iron bank, and the huge payoff on the contract(s) mean the faceless men stand to score big if they train up the person who made that list
― pratt truss it (dan m), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:21 (seven years ago) link
honest question: why does everyone keep saying "the faceless men" when afaict there's only one faceless dude
― tobo73, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:23 (seven years ago) link
Yeah there's like one guy, a dead waif, and some anonymous face harvesters seen many episodes prior.
― Evan, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:25 (seven years ago) link
How do we know this? Perhaps it's actually 1000 men using Jaqens face? But yeah, it was a pretty dumb thing to have 'Jaqen' turn up in Braavos, when he really had nothing to do there.
― Frederik B, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:28 (seven years ago) link
xp faceless interns
― lazy rascals, spending their substance, and more, in riotous living (Merdeyeux), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:30 (seven years ago) link
― pratt truss it (dan m), Monday, June 13, 2016 12:21 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
that's an interesting take --- he seems so casual about her leaving at the end that i couldn't help but think this outcome (waif dead, arya back to being arya) was exactly what he wanted
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:31 (seven years ago) link
not just casual, he actually smiled...a little bit.
― dan selzer, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:32 (seven years ago) link
It kinda made no sense.
― Frederik B, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:36 (seven years ago) link
I like the idea that they're happy to have her go kill Cersei
― dan selzer, Monday, 13 June 2016 17:43 (seven years ago) link
latest episode itself was kinda whatevs, but it's a table-setter, so that's fine
i understand forks' complaints about this season being way more fan-service-oriented and soap-operaish than previous seasons, but i don't think it's genuinely breaking any of its established rules and after the relentlessly bleak season that preceded it, it's an understandable move, it may be less weighty but it's also incredibly entertaining. at some point the show was gonna have to lean more into the entertainment camp
― if young slothrop don't trust ya i'm gon' rhyme ya (slothroprhymes), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:49 (seven years ago) link
xp it made sense if you read that exchange as arya doing a mike drop and jaquen thinking "now... now the student... has become... THE MASTER"
look, i'll cop to getting too hung up on the death fakeouts. but those are good examples of the writing crew trying to unhinge all the unfinished GRRM directions and put their trains on different tracks. my sense is that the whole season is a table setter, bound to be capped by a few major deaths/alliance shifts. they're calling a do-over. it may not have been preventable given the utterly unique circumstances surrounding the source material but it's showing. A lot of the plot twists and character developments feel unearned and it's rubbing me the wrong way.
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:53 (seven years ago) link
was also thinking that tyrion might have expected the slavers to show up because he figured dany would return with dragons, make a show of power, and then hey presto she's got the fleet she's always wanted
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Monday, 13 June 2016 17:56 (seven years ago) link
why does everyone keep saying "the faceless men" when afaict there's only one faceless dude
Budget, man. Do you know how hard it is to costume and feed a few more folks dressed in rags on location? They've got to save their money! Plus, did you know Peter Dinklage is a totally CGI creation? Shit's expensive.
I think it's a legit criticism to complain about table-settling 6 seasons in, let alone one (two?) episode before the finale. There have been several seasons of table-setting, it's time to eat, dammit!
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 13 June 2016 18:02 (seven years ago) link
...it was table-setting for events that will occur in the next two eps is what i meant (mostly in the finale, if ep. 9 is gonna be all bastard battle all the time as the preview seems to indicate)
― if young slothrop don't trust ya i'm gon' rhyme ya (slothroprhymes), Monday, 13 June 2016 18:04 (seven years ago) link
So many of these complaints about this or that world-building storyline "not going anywhere" make me feel like I'm watching hundreds of fan sheep dogs trying to herd GRRM and the showrunners toward a predictable boring dragons vs. zombies conclusion.
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Monday, 13 June 2016 18:23 (seven years ago) link
dragons vs. zombies is pretty inevitable is it not?
― Evan, Monday, 13 June 2016 18:26 (seven years ago) link
The what's west of westeros line gave me hope that everyone would unite to go commit genocide on some undiscovered continent
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Monday, 13 June 2016 18:28 (seven years ago) link
Otherwise known as the conclusion GRRM was inevitably heading towards
Xp
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 June 2016 18:28 (seven years ago) link
camera pulls back to reveal the night king sitting with his eyes closed on a hilltop, his teeth bared in a wide grincue sound: "I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmonyyyyyy"
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 13 June 2016 18:32 (seven years ago) link