HBO's adaptation of Game of Thrones - Thread 2. There are a lot of nerds.

btw when the maester guy was whispering to cersei about his little birds etc, that's presumably wildfire they're talking about, right?

A tenet of medieval jurisprudence is that the person with the knife always has the right of way, until a person with a sword shows up.

People are now apparently furious that there wasn't anything more to Arya's recklessly vulnerable stroll though town when she got stabbed. But all of the bullshit that was being theorized to justify that seemingly shortsighted mistake was just so over the top stupid imo.

― Evan, Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:30 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how was it a 'shortsighted mistake'—the point was she was wounded & that being attacked by ppl who can look like other ppl is crazy-making

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, June 13, 2016 2:42 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The walking around town all vulnerable and carefree part was the mistake I was referring to. She was supposed to have realized already that she was likely being hunted.

Loved the waif's fists of determination when she ran.

tv logic but i felt pretty upset when she upturned all those fruit pedllers stock and there was no consequence

Scenes with Tyrion really testing the limits of what I'll put up with just to watch nathalie emmanuel.

i haven't been paying that much attention because these last two episodes have been so boring but where is varys going again?

Our narrative expectations have led people to label Tommen a villain for getting rid of trial by combat. His reasoning was pretty sound.

That wasn't really reasoning though it was a rationalization

Agreed that injured arya really pushed suspension of disbelief to its breaking point, I thought everyone's insane theories about what "actually" happened were ridiculous and prefer the straightforward way they did it--prefer this approach in general, ppl want this show to be on some "the 6th sense" ish with twists too often

The walking around town all vulnerable and carefree part was the mistake I was referring to. She was supposed to have realized already that she was likely being hunted.

― Evan, Monday, June 13, 2016 6:17 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

She does that's why she's freaking out and looking at everyone's faces!

I'm speaking of the parts prior to her being stabbed.

I don't think people are demanding twists, I think they're being pushed to accept twists as the only logical explanation for events and unexplained/confusing phenomenon in the show. When you condition viewers to expect characters to come back from the dead or reappear after a few seasons off, you can't be shocked when people expect more of that. Watching the Ask the Maester live Q&As, every week someone still asks where Gendry is ("he's rowing, my guy!") or whether Stannis is really dead ("Yes, take a lap!") or where all the giants went ("they're all dead but one!") or whether Bran caused the Mad King to go mad through time travel interference, or whether the young Bran Stark is the same Bran Stark who built the wall eons ago. And so on. It's gotten so wacky that first fans expected no Lady Stoneheart, then they found hints there would be LSH, then they were absolutely *sure* there would be LSH, then they thought the show was trolling them with all these clues there would be LHS, and still, some people still expect LSH.

it really struck me this episode how much of a difference there has been in the progression of the story since the end of the book material. in grrm's hands things were getting progressively more complicated and generally bleaker. this season has developed as if they got a no-bullshit consultant in charged with wrapping up a tidy, happy ending in a couple of seasons. everything is being simplified, loose ends are being carefully harvested, plot lines are being chopped dead with casual efficiency. every episode gets a couple of good cheer/fist pump moments. this episode we had the conclusion of the arya in braavos story and the riverlands conflict as obvious examples of where someone said fuck it, let's just stop this now. but then you look at tyrion in meereen and clearly the intention was that something would happen while he was there but instead they decided the only expedient way to move on to the next phase was to have nothing happen at all. anything else just digs the hole deeper.

it shows just how much there is to be done, and since grrm would/could never get it done like this, how unlikely he is to actually get the books to a conclusion, by book 7 or maybe ever. for the sake of the show you'd think they'd have done better to get the "consultant" in a couple seasons earlier and prevented the extraneous complications from happening, rather than resolve them in a hurried, disappointing fashion. then you realize that they did that! they trimmed a whole mess of stuff already. not enough i guess. this season has had plenty of good moments, and has been fine overall, but has felt kind of like a diet version of the real thing.

it has been nice seeing the show completely abandon dorne. if they want to just hang the paper on dragons burning it to the ground in between seasons that would be fine too

in fact, maybe that boat sam + gilly are on can sink after a ship-to-ship collision with theon's boat and we can really trim the fat plot wise for a more streamlined focus on things that are interesting

it has been nice seeing the show completely abandon dorne. if they want to just hang the paper on dragons burning it to the ground in between seasons that would be fine too

Varys will likely visit Dorne.

Was Arya's guard down cos she was happy about having decided to leave?
I take it that ship has already sailed? Not sure how long she was layed up for.

The really weird thing is that the siege of Riverrun was one of the things they trimmed! They sent Jamie to Dorne instead. And then they still went to the Riverlands, but without any of the things that seems significant in the books happening - because they are still trimmed. I don't get it?

I doubt think the Facless Men plotline is over.

And “what’s west of Westeros?”

The really weird thing is that the siege of Riverrun was one of the things they trimmed! They sent Jamie to Dorne instead. And then they still went to the Riverlands, but without any of the things that seems significant in the books happening - because they are still trimmed. I don't get it?

Jaime met with Brianne. Maybe she’ll convince him to fight the White Walkers if Cersi disappears.

i caught up with back 2 back episodes in an insomnia binge and this point bears beating: once you start bringing back the dead, all the stakes fall apart. I'm as happy to see the hound back as anyone but the reason it mattered when arya left him behind was that you developed a fondness for the big lug and his emotional weakness was a solid counterpoint to his physical heroics. Well now he can't be killed, so that makes him a cipher. And in the course of like fifteen minutes of story we're meant to understand his entire character shifting to "i'm ready to give up the life" and back to scorned killing machine? There's no patience; they keep pulling toys out of the toybox, breaking them and then getting out more toys. Is the Blackfish really dead? Does it matter? Maybe he shows up next episode and he's somehow paid off the guard that told Jaimie he was dead. Or maybe he's a werewolf. Anything can happen on the show now; the queen of dwagons is getting dropped off on the roof, the king is now completely brainwashed, giants like jon snow, shit just occurs in each episode and the deeper ramifications go unconsidered in favor of apologetics explaining well OBVIOUSLY she needed to come home as soon as possible to see how things were going and it's just a great coincidence she shows up in the hour of need and you see marjorie has a grander plan that will be enacted but if that were the case than why not NO NO it's the grand scheme you see. Somebody upthread said they liked this season because the show stopped taking itself seriously. For me, the complexity of the plots and the proper untangling of them was the largest part of what made the show worthwhile. Now I've moved into madmen hatewatching because nothing really matters in soap opera d&d land when you can reroll your characters and add more NPCs ad infinitum.

it may strain believability that he recovered from his injuries, but he dodn't return from the dead ... he wasn't dead

(didn't)

Brienne and jamie meeting eyes tenderly was *kisses fingers* so bad

― 龜, Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i ship

xp well then i guess stannis isn't dead either, it's not like we ever saw the body. maybe brienne had a change of heart and hit the tree instead of his head and then he crawled off and was save. that strains believability too but hey, why not? Arya took like five serious stab wounds to the belly and all it took was some soup and some nyquil to get her completely better in a day.
"straining believability" in a show that is already packed with zombies and dwagons and vagina monsters is a cardinal sin; if you're not even willing to play by your own 5th edition rules, why am i even bothering to roll the saving throws in the first place?

in grrm's hands things were getting progressively more complicated and generally bleaker. this season has developed as if they got a no-bullshit consultant in charged with wrapping up a tidy, happy ending in a couple of seasons. everything is being simplified, loose ends are being carefully harvested, plot lines are being chopped dead with casual efficiency.

Tbf, the same problem has stymied GRRM and his infamous "Meereenese Knot." The way it's summed up in Wiki sounds familiar:

The story of A Dance with Dragons catches up and goes beyond A Feast for Crows around two-thirds into the book, but nevertheless covers less story than Martin had intended, omitting at least one planned large battle sequence and leaving several character threads ending in cliff-hangers. Martin attributed the delay mainly to his untangling "the Meereenese knot", which the interviewer understood as "making the chronology and characters mesh up as various threads converged...

this season has been way better than the last one imo

lol characters have been dying and coming back since what, the 2nd or 3rd season?

"i caught up with back 2 back episodes in an insomnia binge and this point bears beating: once you start bringing back the dead, all the stakes fall apart."

One key character came back from the dead and another character came back from the dead earlier to establish the existence of that possibility under perfect circumstances. A few characters have reemerged after being left with uncertain fates. Other than that, it's not like people are just coming back left and right...

polyphonic otm, and sandor's arc appears to be a move from killing for no reason because nothing matters to fighting for... something. he's always secretly believed in chivalry - if a knighthood was truly meaningless he would have accepted one - face turn to GOT paladin is credible.

if you believed that all characters we believe to be dead are actually dead and dead forever then that's on you

Somebody upthread said they liked this season because the show stopped taking itself seriously.

j0rdan otm. what is (presumed) dead can never die

Question: has GRRM said whether he watches the show or not? Obviously he wrote a few episodes. I know he's working now, supposedly, but is he going to sit out as a show writer from here on out? Does he, in essence, have to avoid spoilers as well, or are they running all changes by him?

Brienne and jamie meeting eyes tenderly was *kisses fingers* so bad

― 龜, Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i ship

― J0rdan S., Monday, June 13, 2016 11:01 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

seconded

i love this show but i think it fetishizes the lore of GOT too much to say that the blackfish/river run plot went nowhere

also it's like literally factually wrong i think to say that the arya/faceless man plot went nowhere

and the hound coming back is sick he's an amazing character and also he's noticeably changed so it also has a point!

the "that's on you" argument with this show is kinda mystifying; you think i'm somehow watching it wrong or incapable of following its machinations? It's not been particularly strong this season. It's okay if you don't agree but buttressing the argument against "reviving characters lowers the stakes" with "lol of course people come back from the dead, it's a teevee show" and "it's not like A LOT of people are coming back from the dead" sounds like bad boyfriend syndrome.

faceless men had a very inert quality as far as the storytelling, like it went somewhere plotwise, but it felt like nothing happened

the hound is rad glad to have him back and on a mission from god

the faceless men plot sagged for a lot of its runtime but i feel like the payoff this season has been pretty awesome

preview for next week seems to show where the budget for this season was concentrated.

never been quite drawn in by the arya plotline but i think it could now go in some interesting directions.

spent some time on the wiki last night looking at the different religious system of the world: will be fascinating to see how these play out in the end game, particularly the prophecies of the "lord of light" and the messiah figure.

prior to the high sparrow the faith of the seven seems sorta analogous to a corrupt and non-spiritual catholicism, with maybe the high sparrow as a Luther or Calvin type figure (without the schism...yet).

and not sure what to make of "the old gods." there is obviously a fuzzy line in this universe between the natural and supernatural and yet characters are often portrayed as skeptics of this or that religion, which is weird and interesting. not sure how well martin has thought all this through but it's one of the things im most intrigued by at this point.

I'm kind of glad the extravagant theories weren't right but perhaps it was too plain.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 13 June 2016 08:32

I think part of why I feel like this is because there was at least a good and credible setup for the Waif failing as a faceless person, but somehow Jaqen is quickly convinced that Arya has become a nobody without any real proof. He's a really bad judge of faceless trainees. Which is a shame because I always liked him.

one of the pleasures of fantasy literature is that by constructing a universe from scratch its also able to hint at a pre-modern sense of a deep history that goes back infinitely into time and also a world still more or less available for new discoveries. arya's "what's west of westeros" is great because it widens the scope on an increasingly smaller world (always the saddest parts of fantasy epics is that the worlds becomes overly-explained and small-seeming).

one thing i really admire about martin's world-building is that he kinda did this on two levels: both the deep history and the conspiracies of the previous generation are driving the plot at the same time.

and "it's not like A LOT of people are coming back from the dead" sounds like bad boyfriend syndrome.

― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 13 June 2016 16:22

But there isn't a lot.

And while there are loads of unconvincing things, Dany flying back home at a good moment and one giant approving of Jon Snow are not examples of that.

I'd also really like to know how much GRR Martin is giving the show, because if he only gives major plot points then there's possibly going to be a lot of things in the show that go nowhere. I think lots of things will suffer. I've heard most of Tyrion's best parts come from the books so it's not surprising he hasn't really shone recently.
Would be funny if George had actually finished both books, given the tv writers a bare minimum and then got more readers from disappointed viewers.

and not sure what to make of "the old gods." there is obviously a fuzzy line in this universe between the natural and supernatural and yet characters are often portrayed as skeptics of this or that religion, which is weird and interesting. not sure how well martin has thought all this through but it's one of the things im most intrigued by at this point.

― ryan, Monday, June 13, 2016 11:47 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I like this as well- I think it just illustrates how magic elements are just subtle enough and/or only prevalent among isolated groups given the lack of trustworthy hearsay or documentation, everyone who doesn't see something first hand discounts it as just stories depending on how farfetched those events sound.

meant to delete a few "just"s there

kinda wondering how arya will display the skills she got from the faceless men - maybe a scene where she navigates a laser tripwire field en route to hacking the mainframe for nuclear launch codes

The religious stuff, like the magic stuff (assuming there's a difference), is elided over in a really intriguing but confusing way in this show/story. It's pretty rare to find stories with gods *and* magic, no? That is, there is magic in this world, and there appears to be explicitly successful appeals to gods, but maybe that is actually magic, and there are no gods, because magic would kind of make gods redundant, unless the gods drive the magic. There's stuff that seems to be achieved through prayer/magic - like bringing people back to life - but then that's sometimes done with something approximating science (that is, whatsisname mysteriously bringing back the Mountain vs. Red Witch bringing back Jon Snow, or however Stannis staunched his daughter's greyscale, assuming it did not stop on its own). Have we seen any actual powers conveyed by the Drowned God yet? Certainly the Faceless Men straddle religion and magic. It's all an as yet tangled muddle, not necessarily in a bad way, but certainly supporting tautological arguments of the "this happened because this is what happens in this world" sort.

It's pretty rare to find stories with gods *and* magic, no?

in fantasy lit in general? no it is not rare at all. Foundational texts (Tolkien, Howard, etc.) all feature both.

But isn't the magic still basically godlike? Like, isn't Gandolf sort of elemental? He's not a mere mortal, at least.