Remake/Remodel: DC Rebirth so you don't have to

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Especially since the JT Krul version of Captain Atom actually did end up being Doctor Manhattan, out of time and space and all powerful. See? Reading those comics was SOME use.

Weirder though was the Ted Kord stuff and some of the angles used looking down on him and the beetle ship...

Guys, I've had a horrible idea.

10 years missing due to an unseen force. There's a line which is misdirected to Oldie and Dinah but says something about "alliances not made" and "teams unformed".

What if we've got it wrong and this isn't about incorporating Watchmen into the DCU. What if this is the story of how it didn't happen to the Charlton heroes but another universe.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Monday, 30 May 2016 21:43 (three years ago) link

bookmarked this thread, munching on imaginary popcorn

Nhex, Monday, 30 May 2016 22:49 (three years ago) link

bookmarked this thread, praying for u, aldo.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 10:07 (three years ago) link

Is there going to be a ReBirth issue two, or will the storyline now just continue across all the DC titles (I'm morbidly interested in how they will develop the Batman scene at the end of issue one)?

Chicamaw (Ward Fowler), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 10:37 (three years ago) link

I thought there would a separate Rebirth miniseries, like there is with most of these crossover events, but apparently Rebirth #1 is all we're going to get? And AFAIK there isn't any info on where this whole Watchmen/Dr. Manhattan is gonna continue? Presumably in Batman at least, but there are like a kazillion different Bat-titles nowadays. I guess it's no suprise, but seems like DC doesn't really care at all about casual readers (like myself) who might just want to read this one story arc and not every one of the 50+ titles they produce.

Also, apparently this'll be the last DC comic Geoff Johns will write for a while, as he's gonna focus on the live-action adaptations. So I guess there's a good chance this whole thing will never be resolved, and it'll be swiped away in the next inevitable reboot.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 10:50 (three years ago) link

I think they've said something something this is a story that will last two years, all over dc titles, we will see it again, don't know how, don't know when, but we know that we will see it agin.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 10:52 (three years ago) link

Well I'm not gonna start randomly reading their books just in case some of them they might follow this plot, so I guess it's back to Marvel for me. Great job at attracting new readers, DC!

Tuomas, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 10:59 (three years ago) link

apparently this'll be the last DC comic Geoff Johns will write for a while


as he's gonna focus on the live-action adaptations

benzarro ghazarri (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:00 (three years ago) link

I *think* the initial plot/premise concludes at the end of the Rebirth issues before the numbering changes/reverts/restarts, so just the 22 books to read. Of course, these are spaced out across 4 months so some books will be nearly 6 issues into their regular continuity run before Rebirth gets resolved or explained.

I should have realised earlier of course, that Titans Hunt has also been required reading. As a basic and confusing plot summary, the 60s Teen Titans (Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash etc) were removed from history to protect them from Mr Twister which means all the versions of those characters since are effectively different ones - i.e. the Dick Grayson from the Titans never goes on to be Nightwang etc, making them kind of like the JSA I'd guess. Anyway, they come back into continuity as their own preserved in aspic versions during Titans Hunt except Wally, because everyone forgot about him. Which has now been retconned (already, less than one year on) as being kept by the Speed Force.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:05 (three years ago) link

And GJ won't just be doing films, he'll also be continuing with Green Lantern (the Simon Baz version, at least).

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:05 (three years ago) link

hold up - there are more duplicate heroes in continuity now in the form of the old-school teen titans?

benzarro ghazarri (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:07 (three years ago) link

In terms of books to come, Rebirth specials are Aquaman, Batman, Flash, Green Arrow, Green Lanterns (Simon Baz/Power Ring), Superman, Titans (Wally/Dick/Roy etc), Wonder Woman (all June); Batgirl & the Birds of Prey, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, The Hellblazer, Justice League, Nightwing, Red Hood & The Outlaws (all July); Blue Beetle, Cyborg, Deathstroke, Suicide Squad, Supergirl, Trinity (Bats/Supes/WW) (August); Batman Beyond, Teen Titans (Damian Wayne, Johnsiverse Wally etc) (September).

Then after the specials come:

Batman (twice a month), Detective (twice a month, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Clayface), Batgirl, Nightwing (twice monthly), All Star Batman (twice monthly), Batgirl & The Birds of Prey

Action (twice a month, 80s Superman, Lex Luthor), Superman (twice a month), Wonder Woman (twice a month, odd numbered issues tell one story and even numbered issues another), New Superman (Chinese Superman), Superwoman (Lois, presumably 80s Lois), Supergirl, Trinity.

Aquaman (twice a month), Flash (twice a month), Green Lanterns (twice a month), Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps (twice a month), Justice League (twice a month), Titans, Cyborg, Justice League America (twice a month), Teen Titans.

Green Arrow (twice a month), Deathstroke (twice a month), Harley Quinn (twice a month), The Hellblazer, red Hood & The Outlaws, Suicide Squad (twice a month), Blue Beetle, Super Sons (Damian Wayne and Jonathan Kent), Batman Beyond.

Who knows how long that'll last.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:24 (three years ago) link

Yes, and they're going to have their own separate book going forward. xpost

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:25 (three years ago) link

Also, according to this interview, the reason Johns is using Dr. Manhattan in the story is meta-criticism: he's the stand-in for all the creators who thought the way to move superhero comics "forward" was to make them more grim & gritty. While that's not a bad idea in theory, it raises a few points...

1) Morrison has already done the same meta-self-criticism of DC at least three times (Animal Man, Seven Soldier, Final Crisis). so maybe come up with some new ideas?

2) Dr. Manhattan's story in Watchmen ended on an optimistic note: he'd come to appreciate life and its beauty. How does he go from that into making everything dark and depressing?

3) Hasn't Johns himself been the main architect of the DC universe for the last 10+ years? So if he felt DC has become too dark, why hasn't he done anything about it before?


Tuomas, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:28 (three years ago) link

So wait, if there's the 80s Superman in Action and Chinese Superman in his own book, who's gonna be in the regular Superman book?

Tuomas, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:30 (three years ago) link

Yes, and they're going to have their own separate book going forward

fucking hell. at this point it's probably easier to ask who doesn't have at least one doppelganger in this exciting new universe.

benzarro ghazarri (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:36 (three years ago) link

Superman will probably turn out not to be dead. Or we might get Electric Superman, or Mullet Superman.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:36 (three years ago) link

Hasn't Johns himself been the main architect of the DC universe for the last 10+ years? So if he felt DC has become too dark, why hasn't he done anything about it before?

exactly - he's the guy behind the dcu's weird dismemberment fetish and already the architect of numerous reboots. at this point it's like letting a builder who's managed to accidentally burn down your house three times to take one more crack at getting it right

benzarro ghazarri (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:40 (three years ago) link

I would actually be enthused about some of these titles, with the knowledge that they weren't made to start spiralling down a Johns drain, but DiDio still means that they'll probably mostly suck, or the good ones will wink out of existence for no reason.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 11:59 (three years ago) link

Such a depressing list of writers -- with maybe one or two not-terrible, but also not-that-exciting exceptions.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:20 (three years ago) link

Total anecdotal side note: although my general DCU dilettantery ended abruptly with the advent of Flashpoint, it should be noted that I've bought Swamp Thing and Hellblazer comics as long as I've been aware of their existence (since like 1990) and that also abruptly ended at the same time (although I do intend to read Snyder's Swamp Thing at some point, as I've heard good things). It's mildly distressing to see that those characters are still mired in this convoluted garbage that I don't foresee ever wading through. I did look through an issue of the recent (and I guess now cancelled) Swamp Thing by Wein and Kelley Jones and it was easily the worst issue of Swamp Thing that I've ever seen (and I lived through the Nancy Collins run). Congratulations!

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:27 (three years ago) link

And, yeah, with few exceptions their writing roster has been underwhelming. I'll never understand what pulled, like, Greg Pak and Ann Nocenti to the Darkseid.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:28 (three years ago) link

What I was told at the roadshow leading up to rebirth is that Johns isn't writing because he's overseeing all of the Rebirthverse, not focusing on live action. That could have changed.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:35 (three years ago) link

This is a fairly recent development in the wake of Superman v Batman's underperformance and what is probably Zack Snyder's quiet demotion.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:40 (three years ago) link

So that he can bring that Green Lantern magic to the movies.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:41 (three years ago) link

I'm assuming a Johns Superman film would only make sense if you'd watched Season 3 of Smallville and the first colour season of George Reeves Superman, co-star Dean Cain as an alternate Superman that married Lois, feature the death of AIDS Advert Superman and have Gene Hackman play a Superfriends Suit Luthor.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:57 (three years ago) link

Actually, what am I saying. I'd rather watch that than another Snyder film.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 12:58 (three years ago) link

It's working already!

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:07 (three years ago) link

What are the TV shows like - isn't he involved with them too?

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:23 (three years ago) link

Yeah, he is to some extent. They're dumb and occasionally grim but also goofy and campy and fun and somewhat self-aware.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:29 (three years ago) link

Greg Berlanti is the exec producer on those shows and he's also apparently moving up to the cinematic leagues (working on a Booster Gold movie) after Snyder's fumble.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:31 (three years ago) link

Johns wrote two (admittedly pretty good) episodes for Season 1 of Arrow and was Exec VP on Season 1 of Flash. Doesn't do anything any more.

Flash - both seasons have been pretty dumb fun, though S1 more so. S2 in particular, although S1 is still guilty, too frequently indulges in a series arc it doesn't have the chops to carry off. When it's Monster Of The Week in Flash mythos then it's one of the most fun things on TV.

Arrow had an average S1, a pretty great S2, a mediocre S3 and a dreadful S4. Much of this is allegedly because Stephen Amell's supposed to be a nightmare to work with leading to main characters quitting, but that doesn't excuse terrible writing and pedestrian direction.

Legends Of Tomorrow was a lot of fun but kind of disappeared up its own wazoo naking the plot as timey-wimey as possible. Could have been half the length tbh. But next season - JSA!

Supergirl is deeply mired in the Byrne era book and is just as much fun, except when it dips into Silver Age goofiness. The Flash crossover ep was really great, I thought.

At the end of Flash S2 Barry does a Flashpoint. The main effect of that is that Supergirl will move from Earth 1 to Earth 0 (in comics terms, it's actually un-named alternate Earth to earth 1 on tv). Who knows what else will happen.

Horizontal Superman is invulnerable (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:35 (three years ago) link

xp Does that include Gotham - it seemed a very different beast to Flash / Arrow / Legends of Tomorrow.

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:37 (three years ago) link

Gotham is a different beast all together, it's on Fox whereas all the rest are on The CW (now Supergirl's moved to join them).

For me, Gotham has been patchy. The second half of S1 was kind of pointless stretching of plot, and S2 could be cut by at least 5 eps. BUT the last few eps of Gotham have been properly great. Clayface was superb.

Horizontal Superman is invulnerable (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:41 (three years ago) link

xpost Gotham is unrelated to the other shows. Haven't watched.

I also hadn't watched Supergirl yet but aldo's description has definitely piqued my interest.

There's also the dearly departed and short-lived Constantine which was just finding its footing before it was cancelled. Pretty decent adaptation, and Matt Ryan was effing perfect in the title role.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:42 (three years ago) link

Wally gets sucked off by the Speed Force. Result.


DJP, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:42 (three years ago) link

Supergirl has an episode called For the Girl Who Has Everything, which is exactly what you think it is. Do I need say more?

Horizontal Superman is invulnerable (aldo), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:47 (three years ago) link

They completely fucked up the chance to adapt the Moore/Gibbons story properly, though. So much of the episode was spent developing other subplots that the whole "what if Krypton hadn't exploded and Supergirl still had a good life there?" scenario (i.e. the most interesting part of the original Superman comic) was given maybe 5 minutes of screentime, which totally deflated the drama of Kara finding out what it was all about and forcing herself to leave.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:53 (three years ago) link

There's always the animated JLA adaptation.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 13:59 (three years ago) link

Total sidebar digression here but...why the hell doesn't DC get Timm & Dini to manage their cinematic universe? I for one would be shoveling money in their direction.

I Have A Hot Dog Stuck To My Neck (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 14:01 (three years ago) link

Dwayne McDuffie would've been perfect.

tsrobodo, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 14:35 (three years ago) link

they should get jim shooter for the lulz

benzarro ghazarri (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 31 May 2016 15:24 (three years ago) link

DJP, you missed the real slashfic payoff sentence:

He then exposes himself to Linda who has no idea who he is, which makes him sad until he gets sucked off again.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 19:01 (three years ago) link

oh no I didn't

DJP, Tuesday, 31 May 2016 19:02 (three years ago) link

i read some of the rebirth #1s. I guess i should talk about it?

In Green Arrow #1, we're meant to already know who all the characters are but still want to have the story told to us again. In this incarnation, Oliver Queen is the openminded white billionaire all us openminded white guys know we would be if we were rich; he blows off a date with a conservative hottie when she doesn't agree with his politics and then gives a hundred bucks to a random homeless kid. Or to put it in even clearer terms:
then two pages afterward, brokeback pose black canary gets into it with him in an alley. So maybe not THAT social justice warrior, just enough that dinah is meant to pose this a zinger:
See, as it happens, the homeless population of Seattle lives in a tarzanesque hoovertown that's being terrorized by begoggled morlocks whose sound effect of choice is "slurm" and Black Canary is trying to defend them and Green Arrow didn't realize it was a thing so HERO TEAMUP.
After shooting one of these slurmanites with an arrow to the knee, GA threatens their captive so: "Listen, Worm. There's a special black chamber in my heart. It's full of sharp objects, but it's pretty much absent of mercy. And it's reserved especially for those who prey on the weak. You have five seconds. And then I'm going to take you there for a special V.I.P. tour." So that's Benjamin Percy's writing.
Otto Schmidt's art is sketchy and reductive but not unpleasantly like a swipe of late Eisner or prime Thurber, except when it devolves into sheer amateurishness or the muddy coloring reduces the whole thing to an inkblot.
Here's an example that covers all those bases:
Anyways back at the plot: the morlock creatures are capturing the homeless and then selling them as WHITE SLAVES (basically everyone in this book is white and blonde and good or inhuman). Dinah and Ollie shut down the ring with a lot of carnage and some angry reddit style threats: "I might not have any special powers. I might be young. I might be a loudmouth. I might have a lot to learn. But don't underestimate me... I'll make you feel debased, devalued, bankrupt in every possible way." Following which, we get rear view shots of Black Canary's ass falling out of her leather shorts and we are left with them presumably making out in his super cool apartment. This is worse than impotent rage fantasies for kids. It's impotent righteous rage fantasies for manbabies.

De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Tuesday, 7 June 2016 02:41 (three years ago) link

as it happens, the homeless population of Seattle lives in a tarzanesque hoovertown that's being terrorized by begoggled morlocks

at least this is pretty otm

glandular lansbury (sic), Tuesday, 7 June 2016 02:51 (three years ago) link

Batman Rebirth #1 is considerably better. Tom King, who I love, is co-credited with Scott Snyder for the story; I've read nothing by the latter but I gather he's the batman go-to guy of the moment? I'm totally out of tune with what the dark knight is (or even "is") in DC's current universe. Millionaire ubermensch in the nu-Tony Stark mode? Stoic super soldier with a desperate desire to be a mentor? Morrison-esque untouchable icon? Or Miller-esque sadist bad cop? In twenty pages (this is less of a chapter one and more of an opening paragraph), he's most of those things, more or less, from page to page.
There's a lot of out of sequence story pushed together here. Bruce is training a protege to be not so much a robin as a lieutenant? And he's fighting to save the city. And defusing a bomb? And doing one-handed chin ups off the side of a building while taking a business meetingThe desequenced storyline connects thematically with the current baddie of choice: a version of Calendar Man who does a weird Benjamin Button thing and regenerates anew from his husk of body as the seasons change. He's threatening Gotham with, i dunno, SPORES, I guess. The whole thing is over before it really gets any footing but it's certainly promising. King's tough guy batman dialogue is sufficiently pulpy to hit the spot for me:
Mikel Janin's arts is reasonably functional but his bruce wayne looks too much like a young Jon Hamm for my taste. The backgrounds are either undelineated pastels or overcrowded messes of computer assisted art. Worse, Janin's layout grids feel oddly static; witness this triptych of alfred dropping an avocado into the batcave (yes, seriously):
This book is apparently spinning off in two directions: an eponymous Batman book written by King with next-gen Marc Silvestri David Finch and "All-Star Batman" with Snyder and JR jr.

De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Tuesday, 7 June 2016 03:12 (three years ago) link

Green Lanterns Rebirth #1 reminds me of how much I have always loathed Geoff Johns' writing. SO much overwrought self-referential exposition and soap opera monologue. It's like somebody read a lot of Claremont but felt that his characters just didn't talk to themselves enough. I've tried to read Johns' earlier takes on the Lanterns and hoo-boy they're not good. I gather this story takes place in a heavily crafted, thoroughly delineated Lantern Johnsverse and guess what? You don't need to know anything about it to recognize that this is a mismatched buddy cop story and nothing but.
Three pages of ponderous introductions reveal the Guardians are being chased by those dumb Invasion aliens and there's a Pandora's box or who knows what. And now we've got "real life problems" with the two new Green Lanterns on earth and because Marvel seems to be selling more with diversity, one is a presumably middle eastern guy who looks like The Rock and apparently got the ring in guantanamo (what the fuck?) and the other is a presumably latino woman. She's named "Jessica Cruz" but I'm not sure what race means when everyone in the world looks like a Maxim action figure. Here's the totally normal way Jessica is met by a friend:
In a pair of brilliant character designs, our middle eastern lantern who is TOTALLY NOT A TERRORIST Y'ALL wears a balaclava and the female lantern has no irises and some sort of strange lantern shaped eye highlight and impossible posture.
also, hands are hard to draw.
So these guys meet and they bicker and then Hal Jordan shows up and they are put on notice that they've got to MAN UP and be partners because there's some huge universe changing thing happening and they don't have TIME to put up with you ROOKIES. Just once it would be nice if the new Lantern could come on board during a period of peace and go through several years of regulation training. Anyways, Hal ditches them and then there's a splash page with a bunch of evil red Lanterns and one of them is named ATROCITUS and the other one is a splayed vampirella on a throne of skulls with an impossibly placed evil cat between her spread legs and the cat has a power ring on its tail and jesus christ am i supposed to take this seriously or what.
The art is total bog standard raised on Image stuff; I was surprised the penciller is Noah Van Sciver's brother but that probably just tells you where my reference points are at these days.

De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Tuesday, 7 June 2016 03:46 (three years ago) link

the cat Red Lantern was one of the GOOD things to come out of all that GL hubbub years back

Nhex, Tuesday, 7 June 2016 04:13 (three years ago) link

Superman Rebirth #1 is something different from all the rest of these. Where the other three pamphlets serve as reboots of one fashion or another, the Supes book is a muddle of near-hopelessly mashed up continuities with visual details, historical eccentricities and superhero trivia explicitly cherrypicked and reshuffled into a barely coherent guidebook for an uncertain future. We get Byrne's Fortress of Solitude and cleaned up blacksuit Fabio Superman with a beard and Nehru jacket superman and secret agent Lana Lang and SEVEN PAGES of Doomsday Death of Superman recaps and all of this patent absurdity is treated so deadly serious and served by the most apathetic dialogue and lack of action. The transition between panels here is emblematic:
THE HORROR! THE PAIN! "By the way, that's an interesting device you're using there." "I MAKE things to help me DO things." Hmm, yes. I see, I see.
The plot synopsis, such as it is has Lana Lang trying to take dead superman's body to be buried in smallville when alt-superman shows up to stop her and then they convolutedly stroll down multiple reality memory lanes. Then they bury him and alt-supes smiles. The big takeaway is that dead supermen rise again. Except when they don't and they probably won't now. Except probably they will. I barely follow and I definitely don't care. Read all this essentially meaningless word soup and tell me how much patience you'd have for more:
Doug Mahnke's art is... not good. That's a Major Bummer (pun intended) as I grew up reading The Mask and loving his weird mix of photorealism and caricature. I don't know what you'd call this though:

De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Tuesday, 7 June 2016 04:16 (three years ago) link

sturgeon's law as always applies

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 11 October 2019 16:15 (four months ago) link

What that a Tom King comic is an indyref trigger?

So, your CV says you're a (checks notes) DJ and stand-up comedian (aldo), Friday, 11 October 2019 18:10 (four months ago) link

A law established at federation restricted us from having more than one half-decent cartoonist every half-decade, and while I respect the gag of making this guy a clone of Wolverine, Tom Taylor cannot be it.

now let's play big lunch take little lunch (sic), Friday, 11 October 2019 19:03 (four months ago) link

Looks like Nite Owl is in the Justice League now:

drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Tuesday, 22 October 2019 03:19 (four months ago) link

I was going to say "as much as the Kingdom Come Alan Scott", but apparently that's just what he looks like these days?

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 22 October 2019 07:48 (four months ago) link

and the red son superman, looks like

expedited frictionless convergences (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 22 October 2019 08:11 (four months ago) link

Led by Kamandi? Yeah, probably some multiversal crossover.

Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 22 October 2019 12:05 (four months ago) link

So, having not really followed DC at large but strategically holding Doomsday Clock at arm’s length:
Did they really fuck up the timing with it so much that the culmination ties into crap that did or was supposed to happen in the main line of comics a long time back? And I’ve also read that they’ve already introduced a couple celestial-level characters capable of screwing around with all of reality that makes the whole deal kind of redundant?

mh, Thursday, 31 October 2019 01:49 (three months ago) link

they're called "the editors" but they answer to the awesome power of "THE SHAREHOLDERS"

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 31 October 2019 02:18 (three months ago) link

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