Remake/Remodel: DC Rebirth so you don't have to

No, he just wants to marry Mera but has no idea why.

Couldn't Blue Suit Aquaman fly?

i dunno, but in googling to find out i discovered i'd overlooked the fact that there was recently a series called aquaman and the others, which might be the limpest-sounding title in history

Oh it was dreadful, an attempt to gritty up Aquaman with a team book whose remit was 'be a less epic Aquaman'.

JRJR Supes reminded me of

http://i.imgur.com/JypSYAO.jpg

Out of curiosity I read Rebirth #1, and as I predicted, Johns doesn't seem to get Watchmen's symbology at all... The comic ends with an image of a yellow clock, where big hand is pointing at fifteen to midnight on the left side, while the Comedian blood stain is on the right side of the clock... This completely misses the point of the original comic, where the blood stain on the smiley was in the same position as the big hand of the Doomsday Clock in the beginning of the story, i.e. twelve to midnight. So the Comedian's death and the resulting bloodstain symbolize the beginning of the countdown towards the end of the world, but apparently in Rebirth the world already ended 12 minutes ago? Or maybe that's exactly what Johns wants to say, and he's being more clever than I thought? The bloodstain on the smiley Batman finds is in the same position as in Watchmen though.

Also, when the tattooed lady ("Pandora", according to Aldo) is blown to pieces, unlike Gibbons the artist for this section does not bother to draw the resulting stain of blood in the same shape as the smiley blood stain, so the recurring motif is lost. So lazy.

But yeah, I agree with Aldo that some parts of it were quite okay, especially the scene where Barry helps Wally come back. And it wasn't as incomprehensible as I feared, given that I haven't really read any DC comics at all after Flashpoint, save for Multiversity.

Would also agree with Aldo that, while it is an essentially worthless comic, a product of the problem it purports to be a solution to, exhibits a dunce understanding of Watchmen, and I won't pay for a DC comic until Berg4nza is fired... I enjoyed reading DC Rebirth more than any other 52 comic I've read - low bar indeed, but still.

Perhaps they should just go the whole hog, pulp all existing copies of Watchmen and relabel it BEFORE DC REBIRTH

It's just that the inclusion of the Watchmen themes and characters feels utterly gratuitous, their role coul've been replaced by any number of DC universe cosmic players that would feel less out of place in a story like this.

(xpost)

Also, the funniest bit by far in the comic was Johns' sad attempt at writing Constantine's Britishisms:

Constantine: "Your missus is long gone, chief. Abby Arcane is lost to the dark side and whatnot."

Swamp Thing: "You asked for my help against the capes, Constantine... That is my price."

Constantine: "You've always been a pain in the arse, you bloody turnip."

I half expected Constantine to call him guv'nor and ask for some blood sausage...

If it came from literally any other creator than Didio or Johns or Berganza, stealing the Watchmen characters might have been, at the very least, endearingly cheeky. But this is pretty gross. I mean, Moore has been kind of a dullard lately, but it's still gross.

I found Morrison's Watchmen pastiches in Superman Beyond 3D and Multiversity to be quite clever and intriguing, but of course Morrison A) actually understood what Watchmen is about, and B) was sensible enough to just homage Watchmen instead of trying to integrate it to another universe where it just doesn't fit.

Especially since the JT Krul version of Captain Atom actually did end up being Doctor Manhattan, out of time and space and all powerful. See? Reading those comics was SOME use.

Weirder though was the Ted Kord stuff and some of the angles used looking down on him and the beetle ship...

Guys, I've had a horrible idea.

10 years missing due to an unseen force. There's a line which is misdirected to Oldie and Dinah but says something about "alliances not made" and "teams unformed".

What if we've got it wrong and this isn't about incorporating Watchmen into the DCU. What if this is the story of how it didn't happen to the Charlton heroes but another universe.

bookmarked this thread, munching on imaginary popcorn

bookmarked this thread, praying for u, aldo.

Is there going to be a ReBirth issue two, or will the storyline now just continue across all the DC titles (I'm morbidly interested in how they will develop the Batman scene at the end of issue one)?

I thought there would a separate Rebirth miniseries, like there is with most of these crossover events, but apparently Rebirth #1 is all we're going to get? And AFAIK there isn't any info on where this whole Watchmen/Dr. Manhattan is gonna continue? Presumably in Batman at least, but there are like a kazillion different Bat-titles nowadays. I guess it's no suprise, but seems like DC doesn't really care at all about casual readers (like myself) who might just want to read this one story arc and not every one of the 50+ titles they produce.

Also, apparently this'll be the last DC comic Geoff Johns will write for a while, as he's gonna focus on the live-action adaptations. So I guess there's a good chance this whole thing will never be resolved, and it'll be swiped away in the next inevitable reboot.

I think they've said something something this is a story that will last two years, all over dc titles, we will see it again, don't know how, don't know when, but we know that we will see it agin.

Well I'm not gonna start randomly reading their books just in case some of them they might follow this plot, so I guess it's back to Marvel for me. Great job at attracting new readers, DC!

apparently this'll be the last DC comic Geoff Johns will write for a while

yay!

as he's gonna focus on the live-action adaptations

https://m.popkey.co/603e36/Ow0kL_f-maxage-0.gif

I *think* the initial plot/premise concludes at the end of the Rebirth issues before the numbering changes/reverts/restarts, so just the 22 books to read. Of course, these are spaced out across 4 months so some books will be nearly 6 issues into their regular continuity run before Rebirth gets resolved or explained.

I should have realised earlier of course, that Titans Hunt has also been required reading. As a basic and confusing plot summary, the 60s Teen Titans (Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash etc) were removed from history to protect them from Mr Twister which means all the versions of those characters since are effectively different ones - i.e. the Dick Grayson from the Titans never goes on to be Nightwang etc, making them kind of like the JSA I'd guess. Anyway, they come back into continuity as their own preserved in aspic versions during Titans Hunt except Wally, because everyone forgot about him. Which has now been retconned (already, less than one year on) as being kept by the Speed Force.

And GJ won't just be doing films, he'll also be continuing with Green Lantern (the Simon Baz version, at least).

hold up - there are more duplicate heroes in continuity now in the form of the old-school teen titans?

In terms of books to come, Rebirth specials are Aquaman, Batman, Flash, Green Arrow, Green Lanterns (Simon Baz/Power Ring), Superman, Titans (Wally/Dick/Roy etc), Wonder Woman (all June); Batgirl & the Birds of Prey, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, The Hellblazer, Justice League, Nightwing, Red Hood & The Outlaws (all July); Blue Beetle, Cyborg, Deathstroke, Suicide Squad, Supergirl, Trinity (Bats/Supes/WW) (August); Batman Beyond, Teen Titans (Damian Wayne, Johnsiverse Wally etc) (September).

Then after the specials come:

Batman (twice a month), Detective (twice a month, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Clayface), Batgirl, Nightwing (twice monthly), All Star Batman (twice monthly), Batgirl & The Birds of Prey

Action (twice a month, 80s Superman, Lex Luthor), Superman (twice a month), Wonder Woman (twice a month, odd numbered issues tell one story and even numbered issues another), New Superman (Chinese Superman), Superwoman (Lois, presumably 80s Lois), Supergirl, Trinity.

Aquaman (twice a month), Flash (twice a month), Green Lanterns (twice a month), Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps (twice a month), Justice League (twice a month), Titans, Cyborg, Justice League America (twice a month), Teen Titans.

Green Arrow (twice a month), Deathstroke (twice a month), Harley Quinn (twice a month), The Hellblazer, red Hood & The Outlaws, Suicide Squad (twice a month), Blue Beetle, Super Sons (Damian Wayne and Jonathan Kent), Batman Beyond.

Who knows how long that'll last.

Yes, and they're going to have their own separate book going forward. xpost

Also, according to this interview, the reason Johns is using Dr. Manhattan in the story is meta-criticism: he's the stand-in for all the creators who thought the way to move superhero comics "forward" was to make them more grim & gritty. While that's not a bad idea in theory, it raises a few points...

1) Morrison has already done the same meta-self-criticism of DC at least three times (Animal Man, Seven Soldier, Final Crisis). so maybe come up with some new ideas?

2) Dr. Manhattan's story in Watchmen ended on an optimistic note: he'd come to appreciate life and its beauty. How does he go from that into making everything dark and depressing?

3) Hasn't Johns himself been the main architect of the DC universe for the last 10+ years? So if he felt DC has become too dark, why hasn't he done anything about it before?

(xxpost)

So wait, if there's the 80s Superman in Action and Chinese Superman in his own book, who's gonna be in the regular Superman book?

Yes, and they're going to have their own separate book going forward

fucking hell. at this point it's probably easier to ask who doesn't have at least one doppelganger in this exciting new universe.

Superman will probably turn out not to be dead. Or we might get Electric Superman, or Mullet Superman.

Hasn't Johns himself been the main architect of the DC universe for the last 10+ years? So if he felt DC has become too dark, why hasn't he done anything about it before?

exactly - he's the guy behind the dcu's weird dismemberment fetish and already the architect of numerous reboots. at this point it's like letting a builder who's managed to accidentally burn down your house three times to take one more crack at getting it right

I would actually be enthused about some of these titles, with the knowledge that they weren't made to start spiralling down a Johns drain, but DiDio still means that they'll probably mostly suck, or the good ones will wink out of existence for no reason.

Such a depressing list of writers -- with maybe one or two not-terrible, but also not-that-exciting exceptions.

Total anecdotal side note: although my general DCU dilettantery ended abruptly with the advent of Flashpoint, it should be noted that I've bought Swamp Thing and Hellblazer comics as long as I've been aware of their existence (since like 1990) and that also abruptly ended at the same time (although I do intend to read Snyder's Swamp Thing at some point, as I've heard good things). It's mildly distressing to see that those characters are still mired in this convoluted garbage that I don't foresee ever wading through. I did look through an issue of the recent (and I guess now cancelled) Swamp Thing by Wein and Kelley Jones and it was easily the worst issue of Swamp Thing that I've ever seen (and I lived through the Nancy Collins run). Congratulations!

And, yeah, with few exceptions their writing roster has been underwhelming. I'll never understand what pulled, like, Greg Pak and Ann Nocenti to the Darkseid.

What I was told at the roadshow leading up to rebirth is that Johns isn't writing because he's overseeing all of the Rebirthverse, not focusing on live action. That could have changed.

This is a fairly recent development in the wake of Superman v Batman's underperformance and what is probably Zack Snyder's quiet demotion.

So that he can bring that Green Lantern magic to the movies.

I'm assuming a Johns Superman film would only make sense if you'd watched Season 3 of Smallville and the first colour season of George Reeves Superman, co-star Dean Cain as an alternate Superman that married Lois, feature the death of AIDS Advert Superman and have Gene Hackman play a Superfriends Suit Luthor.

Actually, what am I saying. I'd rather watch that than another Snyder film.

It's working already!

What are the TV shows like - isn't he involved with them too?

Yeah, he is to some extent. They're dumb and occasionally grim but also goofy and campy and fun and somewhat self-aware.

Greg Berlanti is the exec producer on those shows and he's also apparently moving up to the cinematic leagues (working on a Booster Gold movie) after Snyder's fumble.

Johns wrote two (admittedly pretty good) episodes for Season 1 of Arrow and was Exec VP on Season 1 of Flash. Doesn't do anything any more.

Flash - both seasons have been pretty dumb fun, though S1 more so. S2 in particular, although S1 is still guilty, too frequently indulges in a series arc it doesn't have the chops to carry off. When it's Monster Of The Week in Flash mythos then it's one of the most fun things on TV.

Arrow had an average S1, a pretty great S2, a mediocre S3 and a dreadful S4. Much of this is allegedly because Stephen Amell's supposed to be a nightmare to work with leading to main characters quitting, but that doesn't excuse terrible writing and pedestrian direction.

Legends Of Tomorrow was a lot of fun but kind of disappeared up its own wazoo naking the plot as timey-wimey as possible. Could have been half the length tbh. But next season - JSA!

Supergirl is deeply mired in the Byrne era book and is just as much fun, except when it dips into Silver Age goofiness. The Flash crossover ep was really great, I thought.

At the end of Flash S2 Barry does a Flashpoint. The main effect of that is that Supergirl will move from Earth 1 to Earth 0 (in comics terms, it's actually un-named alternate Earth to earth 1 on tv). Who knows what else will happen.

xp Does that include Gotham - it seemed a very different beast to Flash / Arrow / Legends of Tomorrow.

Gotham is a different beast all together, it's on Fox whereas all the rest are on The CW (now Supergirl's moved to join them).

For me, Gotham has been patchy. The second half of S1 was kind of pointless stretching of plot, and S2 could be cut by at least 5 eps. BUT the last few eps of Gotham have been properly great. Clayface was superb.

xpost Gotham is unrelated to the other shows. Haven't watched.

I also hadn't watched Supergirl yet but aldo's description has definitely piqued my interest.

There's also the dearly departed and short-lived Constantine which was just finding its footing before it was cancelled. Pretty decent adaptation, and Matt Ryan was effing perfect in the title role.

Wally gets sucked off by the Speed Force. Result.

um

Supergirl has an episode called For the Girl Who Has Everything, which is exactly what you think it is. Do I need say more?

They completely fucked up the chance to adapt the Moore/Gibbons story properly, though. So much of the episode was spent developing other subplots that the whole "what if Krypton hadn't exploded and Supergirl still had a good life there?" scenario (i.e. the most interesting part of the original Superman comic) was given maybe 5 minutes of screentime, which totally deflated the drama of Kara finding out what it was all about and forcing herself to leave.

Sic, it is possible to be too much of an arsehole.

:( I’m sorry for disparaging the dude that gave OL syphilis

Y'know tbf it's really a fool's errand to try and pin it on one solitary dude.

Exsyphiliselcior!

Lois Lane #4 starts out incest-y and only gets more so.

sold

Took a look at DC's books in a shop for the first time in ages because of this thread, and am predictably mystified and enraged. What is a Year of the Villain? Why is Event Leviathan? The fucking Legion of fucking tedious fucking Super-heroes again?

I tried reading Tom King's Batman a while ago on the strength of his Vision series. It was extraordinarily purple, with a plot that lurched like a drunk falling down stairs, but aside from the 1-page reintroduction of Kite Man, it was not very good.

http://www.superdickery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/crwtpy3wgaaew3sh8jkt.jpg

King's Batman is pretty wacky and they seem to be playing up the 'high tech' angle of everything. I thought it was ok fun. I'm I've read up to #48, so I am a couple arcs behind where it is at now. They did a Superman and Batman double dating with Lois Lane and Catwoman issue, which was cheesy but super hero comic catnip. The New 52 Batman is a pretty emotional creature compared to the ole' Miller Batd1ck.

I'm kind of skipping around catching up on some Batman comics. I am reading the last part of the Tomasi/Gleason Batman and Robin series and up to when the teams changed on the first N52 Detective series. I've read the whole VOL.2/N52 Snyder Batman run.

King's run has some slow stretches, but overall I admit love it (and its purpleness)

once the wedding passes tho, woo boy.

I'm back to enjoying King's run in a read-it-as-soon-as-its-out (but for free) way

With respect to the crap vs. indie discussion, I like both, but I'd pick a bad Tom Taylor comic over Simon Hanselmann any day, yikes

Some would have us believe that the world of indie comics is less crap-filled than the mainstream.

sturgeon's law as always applies

What that a Tom King comic is an indyref trigger?

A law established at federation restricted us from having more than one half-decent cartoonist every half-decade, and while I respect the gag of making this guy a clone of Wolverine, Tom Taylor cannot be it.

Looks like Nite Owl is in the Justice League now:

https://static0.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Nite-Owl-Justice-League-2.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=963&h=481

I was going to say "as much as the Kingdom Come Alan Scott", but apparently that's just what he looks like these days?

and the red son superman, looks like

Led by Kamandi? Yeah, probably some multiversal crossover.

So, having not really followed DC at large but strategically holding Doomsday Clock at arm’s length:
Did they really fuck up the timing with it so much that the culmination ties into crap that did or was supposed to happen in the main line of comics a long time back? And I’ve also read that they’ve already introduced a couple celestial-level characters capable of screwing around with all of reality that makes the whole deal kind of redundant?

they're called "the editors" but they answer to the awesome power of "THE SHAREHOLDERS"