Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Frank never admitted to it but I think that was definitely the reason. This FAQ kinda explains it:

http://lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/misc/why.html

Basically - FZ claimed the original tapes were too damaged and the bass and drums needed to be re-recorded, but a number of People Who Were There claim this is not actually true.

(I guess denying royalties was not the 'sole purpose' - but definitely a big factor his decision, given how stingy he was with those guys)

I heard the damaged tapes story, also that he thought the playing basically sucked.

Any shortcomings in the original recordings were entirely down to Zappa himself though, he produced and mixed the original albums, pretty ineptly imo.

I heard the damaged tapes story, also that he thought the playing basically sucked.

Feel like I always spam the Zappa threads with this cherce nugget but do you guys know the story about FZ and Weird Al's bass player?

Nobody taking the bait, huh? Okay... no, I don't know the story!

http://www.globalbass.com/archives/dec2001/stephen_jay.htm

Some of his instrumentals still do it for me. I have a soft spot for Moggio (from the otherwise very weak Man From Utopia album), which I think is an astounding composition. The counterpointing bass is incredible, and it's all written out.

TS: 'Catholic Girls' vs. 'Jewish Princess'

McLaughlin is on another level than Zappa, plus their viewpoints are so different, highly spiritual questing vs LA cynic

thank you so much for posting that interview James. worlds collide - im intrigued!

fun fact: Mahavishnu Orchestra was FZ's opening band during the early days of the Roxy band. Apparently there was a pretty big rivalry between the guitarists and two bands. Plus the various drummers and percussionists in FZ's band were all blown away by Billy Cobham.

Christ talk about some serious playing being thrown down that's quite a bill

ponty (who was in the mothers at that point) wound up going to the mahavishnu orchestra a year or so later. and yeah, this was spring '73, when the original mahavishnu orchestra was at their peak... they'd shred faces for 70 minutes, and then zappa would come on and start with the shitty blues of "cosmik debris". that said the rest of the mothers' set was solid material- stuff like rdnzl and the instrumental version of "inca roads", and even if the band wasn't nearly as tight as mahavishnu at that point they were no slouches.

Not only that but isn't "Cosmik Debris" a dig at the kind of spiritual guru stuff John McLaughlin et al were involved with?

Frank is an amazing guitar player and almost every guitarist I know thinks so. His soloing is very emotive. Guitar solos suck, but somehow Frank's don't.

I just heard a Detroit 76 show where the bass player for Mahavishnu joins them on stage with Flo and Eddie and the drummer from Grand Funk!!!

would listen to that show

btw yeah this developing "guitarists don't think zappa was a good one" strain in this thread is lolworthily wrong & bullshit

Here u go its a great show!

https://youtu.be/lWYgrreRRbw

btw yeah this developing "guitarists don't think zappa was a good one" strain in this thread is lolworthily wrong & bullshit

I think it was just one person who said this? FZ was hit and miss imo. Some of his solos just seem to go nowhere to me but when he nailed it (e.g. "Watermelon"), he fucking nailed it. I don't think he was near McLaughlin's league as a player but hardly anyone is.

I think 'Watermelon' is the only song on that record where the solo wasn't pasted in from another source. FZ was going through his xenochrony phase by that time.

He was a great soloist, somehow hit a sweet spot of thinking + feeling in his solo construction. Not the best in the world at playing complicated written parts, which is why he hired stunt guitarists. In retrospect it's slightly surprising that he occasionally hired guitarists because of their feel for the blues (Lowell George, Ray White), you'd think this fan of Gatemouth Brown and Johnny Guitar Watson would be all over that himself, but I guess as the main guy on stage he wanted to free himself up for other stuff. I wish he'd done more comping when other band members had solo space in jazzier pieces — he does a little bit in Roxy the Movie, and he sounds great comping on "King Kong" on Uncle Meat.

Do we think Belew counts as a stunt guitarist?

Going by Baby Snakes and Sheik Yerbouti, I'd say 80% Dynamic Male Vocalist, 15% Comedy Vocals and 5% Stunt Guitar. He didn't and still doesn't read music, so he had to bring other stuff to the band.

So he made the cut as a vocalist, interesting choice under the circumstances.

I don't know if that's the official word, I just base that on how he mostly seems to be used in that film and that album.

Ha, I did listen to the whole Joe's Garage, inspired by this thread. Enjoyed it well enough, mostly in the background. I'm pretty sure I've done that before, actually, so I don't know what I meant up there.

Wonder who would win out in a Zappa sidemen/women poll.

I didn't poll everyone, but I did do drummer and bassist polls.

Favorite Frank Zappa drummer
Favorite Frank Zappa bassist

Jim Black finishing 2nd in drummers is insane, but whaddayagonnado.

Oh yeah, I remember that, voted Thunes

Ftr I think Zappa is a great guitarist but not as good as McLaughlin

Actually listening to The Grand Wazoo and MO' Birds of Fire this afternoon and getting retroactivley heated abt Phisheads that act like they are so next level, it's such baby music

I feel the same way about Birds of Fire as some people feel about Horses, I've tried but it don't impress me much (same is true of The Grand Wazoo* and lots of other Zappa)

*poetic!

I am the one who said Frank Zappa is not a great guitarist. Obviously the guy is more than competent. He is hyper competent enough to play his own compositions. My observation I guess is that for a guy with chops, and obvious incredible compositional chops, and great Ambitions and pretensions, I dont think his guitar playing is really totally free to go to places never heard before. If I was going to compare and contrast him with another great guitar player in a band I don't like, I would bring up Jerry Garcia, who was a really interesting guitarist and could do really interesting things in a musical environment I did not enjoy.

I dont think his guitar playing is really totally free to go to places never heard before

Interesting point. I read only one interview with Zappa where a journalist told him in his face that he was repeating himself all the time as a guitarist and that it wasn´t that "sophisticated" what he was doing (or whatever the term was, I don´t remember exactly). And Zappa didn´t deny any of this. He just said "well, it's my turn to enjoy myself". And he was in the position to do that, paying people to accompany him to play endless solos.

Zappa admitted he was the least talented musician of his band. His skills varied from tour to tour too (at least he had the guts to try out different guitar sounds from tour to tour). He did some great work with Vinnie Colaiuta on the "Shup Up.." albums (as far as polyrhythms go). Just the ongoing crazy interaction between the two.

Zappa seemed to have a love/hate relationship with jazz - he needed jazz players with chops to play his music but he couldn´t play jazz himself as a guitarist. He looks down on jazz chord progressions and standards in his autobiography but at the same time loved Wes Montgomery records. No one ever asked Zappa why he didn´t learn to play jazz guitar or raise the bar as a guitar player - he was smart enough to understand the theory behind it. Sometimes I feel that records as "Grand Wazoo", "Hot Rats" and "Sleep Dirt" were made by another person than Zappa (or at least another side of the man - looking beyond the things he was known for, such as the lyrics). Some people argue he loved to sell himself as an outcast rather than someone belonging to a scene, trend or genre - and build a following this way.

It´s interesting to look at Zappa and "roads not taken", such as the Hot Rats band. His answer to such failed instrumental projects for larger audiences were dumb lyrics and vocally-oriented music (as a way of revenge, it seems). He also didn´t believe there was a market for his Synclavier music because there were no lyrics.

Birds Of Fire is amazing but I like Inner Mounting Flame better. Is Phish anything like that? I've still never heard them.

My favorite Mahavishnu album is the live one, Between Nothingness and Eternity. If you buy the remastered box set with all the albums by the first lineup, it's been expanded to a double disc with about an hour of extra material - including versions of a bunch of tracks that showed up on The Lost Trident Sessions - and it's killer.

he was smart enough to understand the theory behind it.
There's a whole lot of shedding going in between "understanding the theory" and actually being any good at it.

OTM

Is Phish anything like that? I've still never heard them.

No

Nah man Phish is like Spin Doctors with 80s King Crimson chops

That's a really great way of describing some of the worst music on Earth.

What are Spin Doctors like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsdy_rct6uo

80s King Crimson chops

Wait, did Phish ever approach this? (And I like "You Enjoy Myself" fwiw.)

Assuming he was joking

Oh lol. I forgot how much I enjoyed "Two Princes".

FP^

Spin Doctors = the American Reef
Zappa = the American Bonzos, with added mega-chops

http://www.dweezilzappaworld.com/posts/1982286-response-to-my-brother-s-open-letter