In Damnation of...Horses by Patti Smith

I'm trying to think about which opening statement is more ballsy. "I am an antichrist, I am an anarchist." or "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." My sense is that most people couldn't parse the first because they didn't know enough about Greek prefixes, but would understand that the second was problematic.

I'm one of those milennials so I have a woefully poor grounding in mod v rocker studies but for what little it's worth patti smith is quite clearly one of the biggest hippies on the planet

I was behind her in line at Kim's Underground once, when she dealt with aplomb with an asshole Kim's employee, which forever endeared her to me.

Genre descriptions for Horses:

Wikipedia- Punk rock, art punk, garage rock
AllMusic- New York Punk, Punk/New Wave
Discogs- Rock, Art Rock (this is the only one that gets right)
RateYourMusic- Proto-Punk, Singer/Songwriter, Garage Rock, Poetry, Art Punk, Piano Rock

No.

Ha, I started this thread 14 years ago partly because of this problem: Taking Sides: Patti Smith vs Aerosmith

contains the following unedited sequence of posts, from the halcyon days when this board could reliably make me belly-laugh at work:

Both of them pale in comparison to Alice Cooper. I'd love to hear Patti's pronunciations of all those dead French guys' names. Also, the 'legendary' first line of 'Horses', pfffft - one of those Statements to which the only possible reply is "Yeah, so what?"

Aerosmith had a few moments of accidental comingtogetherness (chemical division). 'Rocks' is to garage rock what 'Exile' was to gospel music. 'Night in the Ruts' has some interesting what-the-fuck-were-they-on moments too.
― dave q, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

* * *

First of all, Patti by a mile.

But Aerosmith could rawk, in an illiterate sense. So they were cool for awhile (like 2 LPs worth) - until they started recycling every fucking thing. I hate Aerosmith soooo much. I can't think of a band that's less creative.
― Dave225, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

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fucking yank shit. golden oldys. i love music from what ive seen board should be called i love shit cos thats all u talk about.
― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

lol

dave q is correct in re "Yeah, so what?"

& yet your very, "so what" response... is only possible because of punk rock hmmm?? makes u think

briefly considered starting a thread for people to post the opening lyrics from various classic albums followed by "Yeah, so what?", thought better of it

But yet I know, where'er I go, / That there hath pass'd away a glory—Yeah, so what?

(this joke is: because I have become a lonely old man yelling of clouds, how it was better here before, & such)

worst and most worst depressing thread

thread sucks, punk sucks, horses still pretty good

Did you not read the thread subject?

Yes,I recommend "Just Kids"

punk sucks

If I could time-travel, the New York mid-70s punk scene would be one of my favoured destinations.

Bought this years ago. Played it twice. Completely underwhelmed each time. It's poetry rock, and who wants that? I don't.

xp me too

Bought this years ago. Played it twice. Completely underwhelmed each time. It's poetry rock, and who wants that? I don't.

If you don't get much out of the incredible rollercoaster momentum of Gloria and Free Money, or the chorus of Break It Up then I don't know what to say in response. I see so many of the haters on this thread repping for so many dull and/or turgid rock records and this is the one you come out to bat against?

I think Patti in general came across at both the right AND the wrong point in musical history, in that I associate her with a kind of bohemianism that was starting to feel old-fashioned. This is pretty much the only area where comparing her with Debbie Harry (who really did seem like the future) is remotely useful. But at the same time her music is primal and squally enough that associating her with punk doesn't feel totally inappropriate.

I don't think I'll ever be able to read fans of Killing Joke and Grizzly Bear throw shade on Patti Smith without rolling my eyes.

I dont really understand why Patti needs to be compared with Debbie Harry anyway, and why it is 'remotely useful'.

I love both equally, but when I listen to Patti I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it. Whereas Debbie feels like she's reaching forward, into the kind of pop moves and pop forms (rap, disco) that will dominate the decades to come. As icons of a particular scene, they feel like they're on different sides of a watershed.

In general I find the comparisons between them pretty facile and not remotely useful, but people still make them, a lot.

You just made a good/interesting one tho, so that's something

I think there was some level of rivalry between the 2 back in CBGB days. Patti trying to poach Clem Burke when he auditioned for Blondie was one thing that caused friction. It happened in CBGB itself when Smith happened to be there, not sure how intentionally, but wasn't a very tactful move on her part.

Last two posts signed Matt DC are right otm

I was behind her in line at Kim's Underground once, when she dealt with aplomb with an asshole Kim's employee, which forever endeared her to me.

Matt DC tellem

I love this album btw, although I may love Easter more.

I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it.

feel the phrase "jim morrison" needs to occur somewhere in that sentence, tho it's perhaps what's giving her detractors the hives

Did you not read the thread subject?

fuck a thread title, punk

the reality was that the lines between "punk" and "hippie" were always very blurred and ppl on this thread seem to be having some sort of bizarre 1984 argument

greg ginn saw like 80 dead shows!
johnny rotten sold acid at hawkwind shows!
joe strummer walked around in flares strumming acoustic guitar & looking like nick drake!

I don't think I'll ever be able to read fans of Killing Joke and Grizzly Bear throw shade on Patti Smith without rolling my eyes.

― Matt DC

truth bomb

ums OTM

i feel like just the image of her on the album cover alone is more important than a lot of bands

iggy pop & johnny ramone, you could make the argument the 2 men most responsible for US punk, both loved the Doors

I don't even really see her as reacting against a Velvets/Beat (or Stones/Doors) lineage.
xp

... that wasn't what was being said.

i just don't understand how people are acting like "oh ppl always say that she was supposed to be PUNK MAN but she doesn't sound PUNK" it's like well duh punk evolved out of a stew of post-60s stuff and she did play an important role in that it's like not like Mother Earth just pooped the The Exploited fully formed out of her geological vag

however they might've spun it later on, a huge portion of punks were former hippies, or at least former wannabe hippies.
i dunno, it might be hard to see from this vantage point but patti smith, horses etc -- it must've been a pretty original, striking thing at the time. which maybe is why there might be some overrating that's gone on over the years ... but I still like that record a lot.

a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage

How is this not what was being said?

iggy pop & johnny ramone, you could make the argument the 2 men most responsible for US punk, both loved the Doors

― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, May 6, 2016 2:11 PM

i thought iggy was primarilly motivated by jim morrisons stage antics - i cant remember any time he has talked about specific doors songs - put them on any of the mixes he sometimes does etc...if he was into the doors i dont think it was an infatuation that lasted - but i guess he knows best

The first Stooges album cover was meant to be influenced by The Doors lp, yes.

Yeah I always saw it that way.
Iggy with airbrushed chin after his alternative cover design idea fell on its face.

Much as it pains me to say it, I believe Iggy has also said he was influenced by Jimbo's singing style. I mean just listen to something like "Tonight." Maybe he felt a little extra simpatico because they were "name brothers."

Why would it pain you? Jim Morrison is a brilliant rock singer. My turn to quote a quote I am constantly quoting, Iggy saying that he'd borrowed so much from Jim Morrison and Mick Jagger that "you might as well call me Jim Jagger or Mick Morrison".

the ian penman LRB article is just tremendous. i never cared about or liked patti smith's music but that article hypnotized me.

there's a relevant anecdote in Please Kill Me where Iggy recalls going to a Doors show at University of Michigan ca.1967-68 and admits to being influenced by Jimbo. He also remembers how the MC5 sneered at the Doors music because it's wasn't heavy Detroit rock & roll. "I hate those pussies" said Fred Smith (and thus the circle to Patti is completed).

I think Patti in general came across at both the right AND the wrong point in musical history, in that I associate her with a kind of bohemianism that was starting to feel old-fashioned.

Don't forget this crucial and rather forgotten figure who actually sold records:

http://www.rickieleejones.com/images/discography/fotos_rel/Rickie-Lee-Jones-Rolling-Stone_79.jpg

Forgotten by who?

Some forgotten figures who didn't sell too many records:
http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/620/MI0001620218.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

In the end, back to the subject at hand, as it were. I was put off for a long time by the thick laying on of all the poète maudit (poétesse maudite?) stuff that she seems to like to invoke- with the original Bobby Z that element was always tempered with the Robert Johnson refrains (Happy Birthday Weekend!) and was sometimes underwhelmed by the sonics (lower-case) of the band, but in the end I like some of her tunes and performances plenty, as well as some of her iconic cover poses.