In Damnation of...Horses by Patti Smith

Does it matter whether it has anything to do with punk?

When it's been assigned to that scene and thumped into the ears of music fans for generations following as such, then yes. Its whole reputation relies on it.

Its whole reputation relies on it.

Now you're just being silly.

<3 horses all time
free money $$$$$$$$$$ redondo beach lyfe $$$$$$$$$$$
i can't even really feel how ppl don't think her band was aces?? like they are just a great sound

HOrses is great and possibly even better live. The Easy Action sets I've heard of her live as well as the boots from the era have been great. I also really like Radio Ethiopia which people apparently thought of as more fo a misfire than Horses. Not so hot on Easter which is more poppy or conventionally rocky or something.

Would love a set of her journalism. Kind of surprised there isn't one out but haven't come across one.
Did really enjoy Just Kids too

she's "punk" in a historical rather than a musicological sense, inasmuch as she belongs to the counterculture that followed in the wake of the hippies & rejected many of their values. this seems really obvious to me? idk

plus she had an attitude (or at least projected one, on record) and couldn't sing for shit

she loved hippies!

Dylan, Jagger etc

She was heavily involved in the CBGB scene that Television set up and became what was known as New York Punk.
Seemed to be about d.i.y. lo fi return to basics rock after late 60s early 70s rock excess. Contained a lot of improvisation but wasn't as technique based as the mainstream of the time.

(xp) I hope you're not implying Dylan and Jagger were hippies?

Anyway, it's not as cut and dried as that, she was hippyish and punky.

new york "punk" avant la lettre didn't subscribe to the whole (generally overstated) punk orthodoxy, in sound or ideology

in other words this is a dumb conversation

you might like patti smith or you might not, but it shouldn't have to do with whether or not she is "punk" unless you have signed a contract saying you can only like punk rock.

Also, musically her band were pretty punky!

Oh and the guitarist really triggered a return to basics in compiling Nuggets. I think that has been pointed to by a lot of people as a triggering point.
I'm still not sure if Kaye was recognising people buying singles from the era when he was working at Village Oldies which from the name I'd assume was a 2nd hand place.

I never thought of her as punk in the same way the Sex Pistols were, and never really felt that I was being asked to feel that way. I don't see that she's someone who calls out for a contrarian response. Her most recent album is wonderful, as is her first. I've been told that she was amazing live, and am prepared to believe that.

I'm trying to think about which opening statement is more ballsy. "I am an antichrist, I am an anarchist." or "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." My sense is that most people couldn't parse the first because they didn't know enough about Greek prefixes, but would understand that the second was problematic.

I'm one of those milennials so I have a woefully poor grounding in mod v rocker studies but for what little it's worth patti smith is quite clearly one of the biggest hippies on the planet

I was behind her in line at Kim's Underground once, when she dealt with aplomb with an asshole Kim's employee, which forever endeared her to me.

Genre descriptions for Horses:

Wikipedia- Punk rock, art punk, garage rock
AllMusic- New York Punk, Punk/New Wave
Discogs- Rock, Art Rock (this is the only one that gets right)
RateYourMusic- Proto-Punk, Singer/Songwriter, Garage Rock, Poetry, Art Punk, Piano Rock

No.

Ha, I started this thread 14 years ago partly because of this problem: Taking Sides: Patti Smith vs Aerosmith

contains the following unedited sequence of posts, from the halcyon days when this board could reliably make me belly-laugh at work:

Both of them pale in comparison to Alice Cooper. I'd love to hear Patti's pronunciations of all those dead French guys' names. Also, the 'legendary' first line of 'Horses', pfffft - one of those Statements to which the only possible reply is "Yeah, so what?"

Aerosmith had a few moments of accidental comingtogetherness (chemical division). 'Rocks' is to garage rock what 'Exile' was to gospel music. 'Night in the Ruts' has some interesting what-the-fuck-were-they-on moments too.
― dave q, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

* * *

First of all, Patti by a mile.

But Aerosmith could rawk, in an illiterate sense. So they were cool for awhile (like 2 LPs worth) - until they started recycling every fucking thing. I hate Aerosmith soooo much. I can't think of a band that's less creative.
― Dave225, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

* * *

fucking yank shit. golden oldys. i love music from what ive seen board should be called i love shit cos thats all u talk about.
― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

lol

dave q is correct in re "Yeah, so what?"

& yet your very, "so what" response... is only possible because of punk rock hmmm?? makes u think

briefly considered starting a thread for people to post the opening lyrics from various classic albums followed by "Yeah, so what?", thought better of it

But yet I know, where'er I go, / That there hath pass'd away a glory—Yeah, so what?

(this joke is: because I have become a lonely old man yelling of clouds, how it was better here before, & such)

worst and most worst depressing thread

thread sucks, punk sucks, horses still pretty good

Did you not read the thread subject?

Yes,I recommend "Just Kids"

punk sucks

If I could time-travel, the New York mid-70s punk scene would be one of my favoured destinations.

Bought this years ago. Played it twice. Completely underwhelmed each time. It's poetry rock, and who wants that? I don't.

xp me too

Bought this years ago. Played it twice. Completely underwhelmed each time. It's poetry rock, and who wants that? I don't.

If you don't get much out of the incredible rollercoaster momentum of Gloria and Free Money, or the chorus of Break It Up then I don't know what to say in response. I see so many of the haters on this thread repping for so many dull and/or turgid rock records and this is the one you come out to bat against?

I think Patti in general came across at both the right AND the wrong point in musical history, in that I associate her with a kind of bohemianism that was starting to feel old-fashioned. This is pretty much the only area where comparing her with Debbie Harry (who really did seem like the future) is remotely useful. But at the same time her music is primal and squally enough that associating her with punk doesn't feel totally inappropriate.

I don't think I'll ever be able to read fans of Killing Joke and Grizzly Bear throw shade on Patti Smith without rolling my eyes.

I dont really understand why Patti needs to be compared with Debbie Harry anyway, and why it is 'remotely useful'.

I love both equally, but when I listen to Patti I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it. Whereas Debbie feels like she's reaching forward, into the kind of pop moves and pop forms (rap, disco) that will dominate the decades to come. As icons of a particular scene, they feel like they're on different sides of a watershed.

In general I find the comparisons between them pretty facile and not remotely useful, but people still make them, a lot.

You just made a good/interesting one tho, so that's something

I think there was some level of rivalry between the 2 back in CBGB days. Patti trying to poach Clem Burke when he auditioned for Blondie was one thing that caused friction. It happened in CBGB itself when Smith happened to be there, not sure how intentionally, but wasn't a very tactful move on her part.

Last two posts signed Matt DC are right otm

I was behind her in line at Kim's Underground once, when she dealt with aplomb with an asshole Kim's employee, which forever endeared her to me.

Matt DC tellem

I love this album btw, although I may love Easter more.

I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it.

feel the phrase "jim morrison" needs to occur somewhere in that sentence, tho it's perhaps what's giving her detractors the hives

Did you not read the thread subject?

fuck a thread title, punk

the reality was that the lines between "punk" and "hippie" were always very blurred and ppl on this thread seem to be having some sort of bizarre 1984 argument

greg ginn saw like 80 dead shows!
johnny rotten sold acid at hawkwind shows!
joe strummer walked around in flares strumming acoustic guitar & looking like nick drake!

I don't think I'll ever be able to read fans of Killing Joke and Grizzly Bear throw shade on Patti Smith without rolling my eyes.

― Matt DC

truth bomb

ums OTM

i feel like just the image of her on the album cover alone is more important than a lot of bands

iggy pop & johnny ramone, you could make the argument the 2 men most responsible for US punk, both loved the Doors

I don't even really see her as reacting against a Velvets/Beat (or Stones/Doors) lineage.
xp