The Limits of Free Speech

hey man i'm just suggesting you STFU and let the regents do their jobs

― the late great, Friday, March 25, 2016 12:29 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"sorry, we would be instituting this policy but for some guy on the internet suggesting it won't have much effect. everyone please go home."

xpost

i see. so this is in response (in part) to protestors not allowing events with speakers to proceed?

i actually am not OK with "enhanced sanctions" -- just as i'm not OK with "hate crime" legislation. seems like you are taking something that's already disallowed and appending a "thought crime" element to it.

wow you really are a reactionary idiot

it is VERY hard, i don't wtf you're talking about.

it is NOT terribly hard to disentangle "israeli government policy" from "the jews". even if people on various sides of the issue seek to conflate those two things for differing purposes.

that's all i meant.

ok troll away now, i have to get back to work :)

one last thing: there's a lot of debate about 'hate crime' legislation on the left, esp. from free-speech advocates. see e.g. http://www.thenation.com/article/hate-crime-laws-dont-prevent-violence-against-lgbt-people/

i don't know why i'm arguing with a troll, i shouldn't let this stuff get to me. oh well.

I really think the energy being spent by some people attacking the ACLU is better focused on opposing and confronting the alt-right.

Or we could just let Sessions decide what kind of speech to ban.

Great thread

Reposting this from the alt-right thread:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/heres-what-really-happened-in-charlottesville?utm_term=.xtQzxYqZ#.knkZrGOE

The right-wingers were more prepared for violence. Most white supremacist and Nazi groups arrived armed like a paramilitary force — carrying shields, protective gear, rods, and yes, lots of guns, utilizing Virginia’s loose firearm laws. They used militarized defensive maneuvers, shouting commands at one another to “move forward” or “retreat,” and would form a line of shields or a phalanx — it’s like they watched 300 a few times — to gain ground or shepherd someone through projectiles. It seemed that they had practiced for this. Virginia’s governor said that the right’s weaponry was better than that of the state police.

If this is the case, it's worth it to consider whether ACLU really did due diligence. Yeah, free speech rights, but if their clients are planning for violence, and they don't check for it, that's their fault, imo. This isn't a mistake, this wasn't unforeseeable, this is a violent ideology that is being planned and funded somewhere. It's bullshit when Greenwald is writing about Milo Literally nothing has helped Yiannopoulos become a national cult figure more than the well-intentioned (but failed) efforts to deny him a platform while actual journalists are digging into the large funding he is clearly receiving from somewhere, probably the Mercers.

― Frederik B, 14. august 2017 14:12 (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/8/16/16153248/free-speech-nazi-first-amendment-democracy-hate-speech

I came in preparing to dislike this, but it's good.

just got an email from DailyKos imploring Boston's mayor to cancel the dipshit rally this weekend.

so, DK doesn't understand the Constitution. I am unsurprised.

(There will be no weapons, or even flagpoles, permitted.)

Go and confront.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/16/odd-statement-from-the-aclu-of-california-white-supremacist-violence-is-not-free-speech/?utm_term=.5bdeadc99229

Maybe Trump will end up breaking the ACLU, too.

i am a bit conflicted on these sort of issues but it does seem to me that the paradox of liberal democracy - that it basically only functions if the majority agree to certain foundations, but it is unable to force adherence to these without becoming illiberal - is going to be progressively debilitating, and, especially in an armed to the teeth country like the U.S., the fundamentalist view of free speech will allow for a lot of harm to the open society

I understand why ACLU feels like they need to release something like this esp since they got so much blowback from charlottesville but it really isn't their mission and it undermines what their mission is

Wow: We make decisions on whom we’ll represent and in what context on a case-by-case basis. The horrible events in Charlottesville last weekend will certainly inform those decisions going forward.

Wait, what part of it isn't their mission, Mordy? Representing white supremacists, or saying that white supremacists are violent. Honest question, I can see an argument for both sides.

saying that white supremacists are violent

ok.

So in Germany, Nazi symbols and regalia are outright illegal and banned. Other than that - and I ask naively, because I don't know - what can we do or say in America that they cannot do or say in Germany? How is our free speech in practicality better than or stronger than Germany's - or England's, or France's or whomever's? Because if the only real difference is that we can fly Nazi flags and they can't ... I mean, the whole idea of the 1st (and 2nd) amendments are as bulwarks against tyranny. And yet ... both are in many ways currently leaving us worse off than the tyranny we escaped (England) and the tyranny we fought (Germany).

uk has some of the strictest defamation laws in the world, you need a very high level of proof for any claim you might make or you are liable to be taken to court and fined all to hell

also many laws have been in place which have curtailed freedom of speech in a manner that would be unconstitutional in the US, e.g. this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988–94_British_broadcasting_voice_restrictions

UK has laws against inciting religious and racial hatred (replacement for blasphemy laws) & people have been successfully prosecuted for 'threatening and abusive words' for (peacefully) protesting a military homecoming parade

Germany has banned certain political parties, has broad hate speech laws, retains defamation as a criminal offence, etc. You can be jailed in the U.K. for social media posts considered supportive of proscribed terrorist groups, almost any speech can be considered a public order offence if deemed intended to shock and alarm.

These are, for the most part, fairly good things but it's not just a question of flying flags.

scotland has a law that means you can be arrested and charged if you say something "a reaonsable person would find offensive" (paraphrasing but the actual wording is similar) at a soccer game

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_Behaviour_at_Football_and_Threatening_Communications_(Scotland)_Act_2012

i am a bit conflicted on these sort of issues but it does seem to me that the paradox of liberal democracy - that it basically only functions if the majority agree to certain foundations, but it is unable to force adherence to these without becoming illiberal - is going to be progressively debilitating, and, especially in an armed to the teeth country like the U.S., the fundamentalist view of free speech will allow for a lot of harm to the open society

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, August 17, 2017 8:54 PM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You basically just described Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance: "The paradox states that if a society is tolerant without limit, their ability to be tolerant will eventually be seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Popper came to the seemingly paradoxical conclusion that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."

xpost Thanks for these. So do any of you have a specific example of some egregious miscarriage of justice that would not have transpired in the US thanks to the 1st amendment freedoms?

@Josh, to add another perspective: in Holland you can get arrested and prosecuted for sieg heiling and chants that seem intended to incite violence ("Hamas, hamas, jews on gas" a 'popular' one among the extreme right)

what can we do or say in America that they cannot do or say in Germany

On the 'do'-part: carrying guns. I know you know this, but for nearly every country in the world this is absolutely surreal and insane. All the more because it's directly tied in with the notion that carrying a gun protects citizen's right of free speech.

scotland has a law that means you can be arrested and charged if you say something "a reaonsable person would find offensive" (paraphrasing but the actual wording is similar) at a soccer game

So 10% of the population is arrested every Saturday.

Haha

(downside to Dutch defamation laws: writing "Away with the monarchy, it's 2017" on a piece of cardboard will also get you in trouble :( )

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-aclu-tensions-20170817-story.html

1934: “We do not choose our clients. Lawless authorities denying their rights choose them for us."
2017: “We review each request for help on a case-by-case basis, but take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence.”

This is the explanation:
Ahilan Arulanantham, the legal director of the ACLU of Southern California, said it was not the organization’s perspective on civil liberties that had changed, but the nature of the far-right groups themselves — a willingness to come to events ready for violence.

“The factual context here is shifting, given the extent to which the particular marches we’re seeing in this historical moment are armed,” said Arulanantham.

Good. Armed marches should be illegal.

Like, open carry? Do your thing. But limiting groups of people with guns should be like convenience stores limiting the number of middle school kids allowed in at a time.

The guns thing OTM, LBI. I watched that Vice doco and was staggered by all the AKs and pistols and knives this guy proudly weilded/pulled from his pants/boots. I mean fucking hell. And he said he had every intent to kill, if that was neccesary! How is that not threatening speech inciting violence???

If a bunch if ISIS supporters had marched thru campus waving ISIS flags and carrying torches and guns, how many milliseconds would it have taken before the troops were shooting/teargassing them to kingdom come? Why are nazis ok?

speaking of being allowed to kick kids out of your 7-11

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/silicon-valleys-anti-nazi-purge-kicks-into-overdrive

I hope they keep this up.

The alternative view:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/can-silicon-valley-disrupt-its-neo-nazi-problem

Whatever. These are private businesses. They are being intolerant of intolerance. That is not the same as refusing service to people because of their ethnicity or their religion.

(or sexual orientation or etc.)

yep I keep seeing the Paradox of Tolerance come up, which is a good thing

"speech inciting violence" has to meet very stringent requirements to be prosecuted - it has to be direct and imminent. afaik you can even say "all the jews must be killed" and that is protected speech in the US

yes - we covered that some last night on Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

xpost And my half argument on the other thread was, how does that freedom benefit society? More to the point, in societies that do not have that freedom, how are they hurt?

Though god knows in our POS country, if they outlawed armed nazi marches then there would be a push to outlaw BLM, and so on. Which goes back to that (new to me, but fascinating) paradox of tolerance. I'm worried we've gone too far down that "all opinions are valid" road to turn back. As we are seeing, there can be no victory if the default inevitably boils down to "both sides do it." It's no wonder we live in a divided country, since no one is allowed or able to be dismissed as wrong anymore.

that doesn't seem to be the case at present.

You mean this current anti-Nazi (as if that needed to be a thing) push? Yeah, dickhead in chief is still getting a sizable minority (no ironic pun intended) of support, there are still "two sides" debates on TV, even if they are getting theatrically shut down. I'm glad to see people coming out anti-Nazi, which along with "anti-rape" shouldn't even have to be a position, but I am not hopeful. I think it's all part and parcel with our stubborn anti-intellectualism as a nation. We're getting dumber and more dangerous. We don't know our history. We don't know the world. We don't know logic, we devalue education and authority. And by "we" I am generalizing, but clearly "we" includes enough voters to destabilize nearly 250 years of democracy.

I do like seeing this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHehmfOXsAA2uyD.jpg

Sorry, but I must now fisk your hyperbole

We're getting dumber and more dangerous.

demonstrably false, ahistorical statement

We don't know our history.

speak for yourself apparently

We don't know the world.

we are more worldly and well-travelled than any other Americans have ever been

We don't know logic, we devalue education and authority.

we are the most well-educated and scientifically savvy Americans that have ever existed

And by "we" I am generalizing, but clearly "we" includes enough voters to destabilize nearly 250 years of democracy.

only because of a stupid technicality invented 250 years ago by much nastier and more ignorant Americans than the ones we have today.

I realize it is completely gauche and unfashionable to be optimistic in 2017, and I'm not trying to be, I'm just pointing out that those statements are incorrect

that type of "we're the worst!" rhetoric is actually David Brooks' schtick

I appreciate you optimism, and am wary of arguing with anyone fighting that particular good fight. Let's just say I agree with you, but only in the grand historical sense of progress. I think we're the worst because despite all the progress we have made there are still too many pulling us backwards *for no good reason*.

Anyway, David Brooks is really the worst, we can agree on that.

JiC burnin' for that constitutional convention to repeal #1