This 'proof' is really taking it's time, huh?
― Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:53 (eight years ago) link
Swans are a band I only feel the urge to listen to once or twice a year under the best of circumstances. I last listened to them several months ago. By the time I'm in the mood to listen to them again, absent an actual criminal trial or something similarly attention-getting, I will probably have forgotten all about this.
― the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:55 (eight years ago) link
Swans are awesome, I'll probably listen to them today
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:00 (eight years ago) link
i haven't really gotten into this thread at all but i think that posts by fgti, justine, sarahel, and others are excellent and i am inclined to support grimm in this whole thing. the character assassination shit and calling out grimm's alleged mental illness or whatever as reason to be suspect of her statements is really fucked up.
i rarely listen to swans to begin with but i think it is safe to assume that a significant chunk of the artists i listen to have probably done something like gira did, and fgti's outstanding post about drinking, rape, consent i think highlights how common this really is. you can throw out your swans albums if you want but if you think the other artists in your collection are "clean" then you are fucking naive
― marcos, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:02 (eight years ago) link
Bowie's 1987 rape charge is a good analogue - he said/she said, where he says it was consensual but she didn't and he throws round phrases like 'attention seeker' and 'ridiculous'.
― suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:07 (eight years ago) link
In fact, his example is potentially worse because at least in Gira/Grimm there seems to have been some kind of relationship at the back of it acknowledged by both parties whereas Bowie's was a drink/drug fuelled one-off event.
― suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:09 (eight years ago) link
Also, her claim was easier to refute - she also said Bowie explicitly told her post-assault that he had given her AIDS.
― the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:13 (eight years ago) link
plus bowie & the underage
gimme some reggae
― contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:20 (eight years ago) link
no immediate plans to listen to swans cuz winter
― contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:21 (eight years ago) link
user "dispossessed" has made exactly 1 post to ilxor.com
wtf is even going on itt
― goole, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:29 (eight years ago) link
i am not a big swans guy but i went to see them on the last tourparts were pretty cool like overwhelming soundbut parts felt just really flat and oppressive and dull like a 90s pink floyd show or something
― robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:29 (eight years ago) link
you just described "To Be Kind"
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:36 (eight years ago) link
even if incontrovertible proof came out that their was proper consent, i wouldn't regret immediately and consistently believing larkin's story.
― just1n3, Thursday, March 3, 2016 2:45 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
OK, now this is the most idiotic thing I have ever read
― Wimmels, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:55 (eight years ago) link
who is this terrible poster?
― kinder, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:59 (eight years ago) link
xp fortunately nobody ITT cares what you think, at all
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:59 (eight years ago) link
maybe I was just referring to the 'there / their' confusion, which my ten year old niece seems to have licked but not the person arguing to discredit a man forever despite the testimony of three credible women and no further accusations against the accused
― Wimmels, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:07 (eight years ago) link
you've gone from blind to cruel to petty
― goole, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:09 (eight years ago) link
for absolute starters you need to ditch the 'no further accusations' bit ffs
― Laertiades (imago), Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:09 (eight years ago) link
there are other boards where your oh-so-fresh typo gags and arbitrary assigning of which women are credible and which aren't will be welcome, try to find them
― goole, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:11 (eight years ago) link
wow there are some v toxic posters itt huh
― marcos, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:12 (eight years ago) link
fucking hell mods fucking lock this fucking thread
― Odysseus, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:15 (eight years ago) link
You gotta be sitting me.
The "poor grammar = UNRELIABLE" method?
Is this a BBcode message board in 2002
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:16 (eight years ago) link
might be a good idea esp after the mystery poster upthread
― robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:16 (eight years ago) link
For all the people like Wimmels who are incapable of walking away from a conversation to which they have so little to contribute: it is my sincere hope that your stubborn persistence here attests to a nagging kernel of doubt, buried far beneath the glib surface of your rhetoric & the arrogant confidence you place in a manifestly untrue & self-serving worldview; and that this seed may yet grow into a flourishing beanstalk of earth-shattering revelations & beckon you to undertake a journey of self-discovery that someday, in a few years, leads you to reread the things you wrote here & shake your head sadly in disbelief.
― bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:17 (eight years ago) link
OK now we can lock the thread
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:19 (eight years ago) link
this reads like an Elvis Costello lyric
also why is this thread still a thing
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:30 (eight years ago) link
Oh wimmelpaws
― just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:51 (eight years ago) link
"a conversation to which they have so little to contribute"
Just a thought -- Wimmel's contributions are just as valid as anyone else's here. Whether you happen to agree with him or not is entirely incidental. It's a public forum, fer cyrin' out loud.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:08 (eight years ago) link
They can be valid and still worthless. And they are.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:18 (eight years ago) link
give em enough rope
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:18 (eight years ago) link
Btw, how long are people willing to wait for this 'proof'? Gira said this wasn't a 'he said / she said' thing, so talking of it like that is already saying that he's lying.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:20 (eight years ago) link
I honestly, at the beginning, thought that Gira probably didn't do it, because otherwise why would he bother talking about 'proof'? That would backfire in a major way. But no.
there's a little bit of that worthlessness
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:21 (eight years ago) link
Xp to alexNYC -- admittedly I may have been conflating Wimmels with dlp (of the thousand & one "this conversation is stupid & pointless!" posts); but given that Wimmels' last two posts itt were 1. Calling another poster idiotic (no elaboration), and 2. Attempting to discredit an alleged rape survivor's story based on typos, I would argue that those contributions not worth the keyboard they're typed on
― bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:23 (eight years ago) link
A good keyboard can set you back
― Laertiades (imago), Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:24 (eight years ago) link
Responding to Alex in NYC's question about listening to Swans going forward. I can say this. I always thought Kim Fowley was an untrustworthy creep and some sort of half-formed musical genius, but after the Jackie story (which immediately did ring true and was backed by witnesses) I consigned him to the dustbin. He probably died the way he deserved to, and I can live without relistening to his albums. Done. It's safe to guess that the Beatles all committed statutory rape, but we'll never know so we'll keep on having lovely Beatles threads.
I could also live without listening to Swans again. It's not a band that's central to my life, though I do think that one of their live albums (Feel Good Now) is the best example in rock history of a live album improving on the original version. I'm not sure how important that is in the grand scheme of things. I've never felt that liking Gira had any particular relationship to liking his music given what it is, but at the same time Boyd Rice apparently has some decent albums that I'm not planning to buy. Ever.
To be brutally honest, I've thought for a long time that Gira's obsession with sex/power dynamics comes from the fact that something probably did happen to him in prison that he's been skirting around for decades.
As far as other stuff, Larkin's comments about why she threw the white guy under the bus aren't encouraging. She had eight years to make this known, and for at least four of them has been completely outside of his influence in terms of her career, but decides to go public right after being kicked out of a band that includes her ex-husband, and after accusing its leader of sexual impropriety also. Which story seems to have vanished from the internet entirely. I really don't know much except for two things:
1. Nobody other than Larkin and Gira knows what happened the night they got drunk and ended up in bed together.2. The hand wringing, "Oh, everyone who disagrees with me is a sensless monster who didn't take the same women's studies classes that I did" is sad.
Sleeve asked for the thread to be locked. I agree. If more reasonably credible accusations against Gira come out, I'd say he's toast.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:03 (eight years ago) link
wrong on nearly every count, thread should have been locked after bernard's post, primarily to prevent you and wimmels from continuing to post horrific garbage, now you've fucked it up again.
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:06 (eight years ago) link
We wouldn't want to listen to people who disagree with us. I think that might have been a Smiths' song.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:09 (eight years ago) link
http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/phantom-zone.jpg
― pantsuit aficionado (stevie), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:19 (eight years ago) link
Stevie I thought we both agreed life is better when one avoids these threads cmon we should be posting in a djp thread about German toilets like it's 2009 life was good then
― Ecomigrant gnomics (darraghmac), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:27 (eight years ago) link
We wouldn't want to listen to people who disagree with us
Since you apparently don't understand anything, I'll spell it out:
- No one here has a problem listening to people who "disagree" with us - We have a problem listening to people you use a false 'even-handedness' as a figleaf for treating confessed abuse victims with sneering condescension and thinly-disguised contempt.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:37 (eight years ago) link
There really hasn't been any sneering condescension or thinly disguised contempt. I'm sorry you see it that way.
There have been a ton of "you just don't get it" or "For the love of god stop it" posts. I said above that this wasn't going to be a productive thread, and I still think that's the case, and I think everyone agrees at this point.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:40 (eight years ago) link
The only person who claims to have taken women's studies classes is wimmelpaws! But he also claims to have been raised in an all-women family.
― just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:40 (eight years ago) link
I won't have any thinly disguised contempt on this thread.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:43 (eight years ago) link
You're right, it's mostly open contempt.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:44 (eight years ago) link
too easy, sure, but how could you not?
― contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:59 (eight years ago) link
not even paws. just nubs.
wimmelnubs.
Public Castration is a Good IdeaFeel Good NowAnonymous Bodies In An Empty Room
Just thought some titles might be worth listing. I was at a couple of those gigs too.
― Stevolende, Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:19 (eight years ago) link
Maybe we should all just back off until there's a definitive develop in the story. Sorry for reviving.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:55 (eight years ago) link
developMENT.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:56 (eight years ago) link