Swans: Classic or Dud?

dude

"Wait for facts to come out" is usually a dog whistle on the Internet....

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, February 27, 2016 5:01 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Otm

Yeah otm

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

if you've heard more than a few stories of abuse - all kinds of abuse - you realize it's actually easy to make very, very reasonable guesses about what happened. there are always patterns. i doubt gira had much malicious intent, but as larkin mentions in one of her posts, his behavior was cowardly bc he wouldn't own up to what he had done, with or without intention to hurt her.

adult children who have been abused often maintain contact, even close contact, with their abusive parents.

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 10:02 PM (1 hour ago)

Also there is a major flaw in the idea that crazy = this didn't happen. There's a reason people get called "vulnerable adults" (or at least they do in the UK, anyway). Something of a tangent in this case but always worth pointing out.

I was serially assaulted in my sleep twice by the same man who had previously been a friend. I woke up the second time to find my pants open and the friend grasping my penis.

Both times I was very drunk and he waited for me to pass out. Worst of all..he was a coworker of mine.

I never filed any report, told my boss...and even with the man himself, we only talked about it once (where I told him I was upset by it) and he said it wouldn't happen again. It didnt, but he did one day make another unsettling request.

I stayed friends with him for 3 years after that despite feeling disgusted by it. Why? Cos I was scared. If he was capable of doing that to me in my sleep, what would he do if I shut him out? What if he got violent? He also knew where I lived

I even let him come to my grandmother's funeral. He hugged my mother who said he was always welcome. I couldn't tell her the truth in that moment.

I finally broke off contact with him years later. Note. ...I was drunk both times it happened. I didn't break off contact with the guy. But having the privilege of being male meant nobody I told questioned either thing as suspicious.

Her story is not unbelievable.

*sexually, not serially

This story is fucking me up.

Larkin is so articulate. So considerate. This story is so much bigger than what happened that one night.

her FB posts have been very good and I think quoting one is relevant ITT:

Michael Gira also survived abuse. A good artist writes what they know, they write the things in their hearts. I still listen to Led Zeppelin despite having read the shocking biography. Being a good artist is not dependent upon being a good person. Art is higher than morality. You have my blessing to listen to Swans all you want. What I would like to end is the blaming and shaming of rape victims, and the scapegoating of the few men who are convicted of rape when the whole of society stands by and lets the abuse of women be perpetrated in public over and over again.

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story

Except that he says it was consensual and she says it wasn't.

If she says it wasn't consensual then it wasn't. Doesn't matter if he thinks it was.

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

You have my blessing to listen to Swans all you want.

Oh, thank you, Larkin

pleasant

She's being remarkably graceful and it's pretty insane to me to see ilx act this way, or maybe not

I mean what the fuck is that post even about right?

This thread infuriated me yesterday but rereading brimstead, emil.y, and crut's other posts (among many others) makes me feel better about it.

I don't know much about Gira but was interested in reading the discussion (which was far from a tarring and featherimg) prior to the VHAT IST DASO POINT OF DIS THREAD derail.

She's being remarkably graceful and it's pretty insane to me to see ilx act this way, or maybe not

it's pretty insane that those stupid fucking images haven't been deleted yet

Gone now.

what images? what?

ye dun wanna know

If she says it wasn't consensual then it wasn't. Doesn't matter if he thinks it was.

― woman in the dunes, Sunday, February 28, 2016 5:55 AM (3 hours ago)

sorry, i have to ask...

so, let's say two parties each sincerely believe the other has given consent, and ~whatever~ ensues with no change in that. if one of the two later claims not to have consented, then that claim must not only be believed, but be treated as absolute fact? why so? do you mean in a general sense or for legal purposes? both?

I've realized that Larkin's posts about this are articulate, considerate, very good, and graceful, and her story is not unbelievable. Gira has changed his story, and his history suggests that he can't be trusted. I think at this point it's safe to say that he did it.

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

― jmm, Sunday, February 28, 2016 6:19 AM (4 hours ago)

some dudes will say that to refer to fucking without orgasm/ejaculation ... penetration without consent is still rape

Yeah given how weaselly his "admission" was in general, not consummated could mean practically anything

He's really pretty unreliable. He changes his story, gets vague on details, etc. I'm pretty sure he's guilty.

glacial clap 4 u tbh

Tbh I automatically read it as 'I didn't ejaculate' rather than any other way, because to a certain strata of men, that's what sex is alllll about.

^^ exactly.

though to be charitable to men, it's a standard manoeuver when trying to minimize the significance of the sex act ... maybe he views it differently with his wife or a partner that he wants to feel closer to?

If he meant to say they didn't actually have intercourse he would've said just that - consummated is def his "polite" way of saying he didn't come while also managing to imply that maybe they didn't have sex. It's slimy.

i keep re-reading the sentence "My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met" in that statement and it's one of the most garbage things i've ever read

and it's the typical smear tactic in this case, a mix of condescension and concern-trolling that will nonetheless placate those that are willing to see him as innocent simply cos they like him.

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

sex is not a one-way activity. to pretend the man has to have an orgasm for it to be a sexual act is insane.

the peace with the demons thing is straight up victim blaming bs

and it's the typical smear tactic in this case, a mix of condescension and concern-trolling that will nonetheless placate those that are willing to see him as innocent simply cos they like him.

I'd say (judging from here and elsewhere) that this strategy backfired.

I mean there's that whole monologue in (I'm sorry) Chasing Amy where Afflect's character suggests Amy is a virgin because she can't have 'penetrative' sex. It is definitely a thing with men that they focus on climax as constituting whether it was sex or not.

sex is not a one-way activity. to pretend the man has to have an orgasm for it to be a sexual act is insane.

I know that, thanks. I assumed by "not consummated" he meant that there wasn't any penetration, but you guys may be right. That whole sentence is really vague.

I'd say (judging from here and elsewhere) that this strategy backfired.

― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, February 28, 2016 4:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yep, and I hope it does. a shitty thing to say (putting it mildly).

i had no desire to revisit the fb statements of the parties involved and comment on how i took them but suffice to say sarahell, justine, emily otm

That whole sentence is really vague.

I'd say her specificity and his vagary is one of the most compelling reasons to give her interpretation far more credence than whatever his is at this point (although there are a lot of other reasons as well).

The inconsistencies in Gira's story make it very suspect.

I was thinking earlier re consummating the sex act that one thing that was circulating about the Clinton /Lewinsky situation was that being Southern Clinton didn't see oral sex as a ful sex act so was denying things on that grounds. Also tied in with Mormon groupies in Salt Lake city giving the best head since with it not being penetrative sex it didn't count against your virtue or whatever when you grew out of that phase.
So the epistemology of what is recognised as constituting sex seems to have a wide perimeter, which might help one making excuses to oneself.

Just said that a bit wrong it was supposed to be that which does/doesn't constitute a sex act in people's epistemology has a wide parameter. So what an individual may believe to not constitute sex may depend on where they were brought up and when.

I don't think he was confused or coming from a different perspectivd here, I think that was a weasel-worded smokescreen, a way to deny the event without technically "lying"

I don't think lying sack of shit Bill Clinton was confused either.

Yeah seriously good point

i just keep coming back to the fact that so many ppl are acting like larkin is somehow in the wrong for speaking out now/at all/ever/publicly/etc vs gira bringing this entire clusterfuck entirely on himself in all sorts of different ways. he has fucked up so many lives over this, when a simple admission to her years ago, followed by an apology, would have kept this under wraps. even now, if he had immediately acknowledged and apologized, this would have died down significantly, and quickly.