Swans: Classic or Dud?

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

The parallel is being at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with it.

And this isn't an unusual situation at all. Again, even the best-case scenario for Gira is garden-variety assholery.

the power dynamic between the two of them is what bothers me the most because it reminds me of irl stuff that friends have had to deal with, especially the not making public accusations, trying to stay on good terms, etc. stuff that in this case (and many others) gets used as "evidence" against the victim in terms of diminishing their credibility.

the power dynamic between the two of them is what bothers me the most because it reminds me of irl stuff that friends have had to deal with, especially the not making public accusations, trying to stay on good terms, etc. stuff that in this case (and many others) gets used as "evidence" against the victim in terms of diminishing their credibility.

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:58 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, exactly. this is why "plan to continue to have contact with" is seldom a free choice. for women, especially, there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be or at least appear forgiving, and not "difficult" or "emotional" or "unreasonable" or "crazy," that leads to such things.

Abused children don't have the option to walk away, so it's not a valid comparison. That's all. Look, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Gira did it. It doesn't strike me as inconceivable at all. At the same time, right now it's two people with different accounts of what happened. So I reserve judgement. How they present their cases on facebook, etc., doesn't really have any bearing on what actually happened.

there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be or at least appear forgiving, and not "difficult" or "emotional" or "unreasonable" or "crazy," that leads to such things.

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

if someone is your label boss, overseeing your album, _living with you_, then no, it's not so easy to walk away either. sure, it's an option in the most literal sense, but so are many things that you're not going to do.

Xxpost what is your ultimate goal here? That people stop posting to the thread?

Why are you attempting to dictate that everybody require the same amount of evidence as the court of law prior to forming an opinion? Would you say to your kid "I'm sorry Tommy is picking on you, but I have to wait until the facts come out before I help you?"

Nobody's going to think less of you if you don't have an opinion yet but some have formed one based on the context of the data available. We all do it.

If new evidence comes out....people will adjust their opinions. Nobody here knows Gira or is causing irreparable harm by thinking the accusation sounds valid and that his reaction seems sketchy.

I'd kind of love it if there was a hiatus on the thread for a bit, yes. Nobody can dictate what happens on the internet.

Well if that's the case you have made that point 10+ times

classic

dlp already got one thread shut down this week he's just on a roll!

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.

dude

"Wait for facts to come out" is usually a dog whistle on the Internet....

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, February 27, 2016 5:01 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Otm

Yeah otm

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

if you've heard more than a few stories of abuse - all kinds of abuse - you realize it's actually easy to make very, very reasonable guesses about what happened. there are always patterns. i doubt gira had much malicious intent, but as larkin mentions in one of her posts, his behavior was cowardly bc he wouldn't own up to what he had done, with or without intention to hurt her.

adult children who have been abused often maintain contact, even close contact, with their abusive parents.

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 10:02 PM (1 hour ago)

Also there is a major flaw in the idea that crazy = this didn't happen. There's a reason people get called "vulnerable adults" (or at least they do in the UK, anyway). Something of a tangent in this case but always worth pointing out.

I was serially assaulted in my sleep twice by the same man who had previously been a friend. I woke up the second time to find my pants open and the friend grasping my penis.

Both times I was very drunk and he waited for me to pass out. Worst of all..he was a coworker of mine.

I never filed any report, told my boss...and even with the man himself, we only talked about it once (where I told him I was upset by it) and he said it wouldn't happen again. It didnt, but he did one day make another unsettling request.

I stayed friends with him for 3 years after that despite feeling disgusted by it. Why? Cos I was scared. If he was capable of doing that to me in my sleep, what would he do if I shut him out? What if he got violent? He also knew where I lived

I even let him come to my grandmother's funeral. He hugged my mother who said he was always welcome. I couldn't tell her the truth in that moment.

I finally broke off contact with him years later. Note. ...I was drunk both times it happened. I didn't break off contact with the guy. But having the privilege of being male meant nobody I told questioned either thing as suspicious.

Her story is not unbelievable.

*sexually, not serially

This story is fucking me up.

Larkin is so articulate. So considerate. This story is so much bigger than what happened that one night.

her FB posts have been very good and I think quoting one is relevant ITT:

Michael Gira also survived abuse. A good artist writes what they know, they write the things in their hearts. I still listen to Led Zeppelin despite having read the shocking biography. Being a good artist is not dependent upon being a good person. Art is higher than morality. You have my blessing to listen to Swans all you want. What I would like to end is the blaming and shaming of rape victims, and the scapegoating of the few men who are convicted of rape when the whole of society stands by and lets the abuse of women be perpetrated in public over and over again.

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story

Except that he says it was consensual and she says it wasn't.

If she says it wasn't consensual then it wasn't. Doesn't matter if he thinks it was.

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

You have my blessing to listen to Swans all you want.

Oh, thank you, Larkin

pleasant

She's being remarkably graceful and it's pretty insane to me to see ilx act this way, or maybe not

I mean what the fuck is that post even about right?

This thread infuriated me yesterday but rereading brimstead, emil.y, and crut's other posts (among many others) makes me feel better about it.

I don't know much about Gira but was interested in reading the discussion (which was far from a tarring and featherimg) prior to the VHAT IST DASO POINT OF DIS THREAD derail.

She's being remarkably graceful and it's pretty insane to me to see ilx act this way, or maybe not

it's pretty insane that those stupid fucking images haven't been deleted yet

Gone now.

what images? what?

ye dun wanna know

If she says it wasn't consensual then it wasn't. Doesn't matter if he thinks it was.

― woman in the dunes, Sunday, February 28, 2016 5:55 AM (3 hours ago)

sorry, i have to ask...

so, let's say two parties each sincerely believe the other has given consent, and ~whatever~ ensues with no change in that. if one of the two later claims not to have consented, then that claim must not only be believed, but be treated as absolute fact? why so? do you mean in a general sense or for legal purposes? both?

I've realized that Larkin's posts about this are articulate, considerate, very good, and graceful, and her story is not unbelievable. Gira has changed his story, and his history suggests that he can't be trusted. I think at this point it's safe to say that he did it.

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

― jmm, Sunday, February 28, 2016 6:19 AM (4 hours ago)

some dudes will say that to refer to fucking without orgasm/ejaculation ... penetration without consent is still rape

Yeah given how weaselly his "admission" was in general, not consummated could mean practically anything

He's really pretty unreliable. He changes his story, gets vague on details, etc. I'm pretty sure he's guilty.

glacial clap 4 u tbh

Tbh I automatically read it as 'I didn't ejaculate' rather than any other way, because to a certain strata of men, that's what sex is alllll about.

^^ exactly.

though to be charitable to men, it's a standard manoeuver when trying to minimize the significance of the sex act ... maybe he views it differently with his wife or a partner that he wants to feel closer to?

If he meant to say they didn't actually have intercourse he would've said just that - consummated is def his "polite" way of saying he didn't come while also managing to imply that maybe they didn't have sex. It's slimy.

i keep re-reading the sentence "My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met" in that statement and it's one of the most garbage things i've ever read

and it's the typical smear tactic in this case, a mix of condescension and concern-trolling that will nonetheless placate those that are willing to see him as innocent simply cos they like him.

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

sex is not a one-way activity. to pretend the man has to have an orgasm for it to be a sexual act is insane.

the peace with the demons thing is straight up victim blaming bs