Swans: Classic or Dud?

Horrible story. Hopefully the truth comes out one day. Even though I'm sure 99% of the time, the person accused of rape actually performed the crime, sometimes they're not. Cases like the Brian Banks one come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)

"sometimes"

emil.y, crut, sleeve massively OTM. the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

Travissss too, great posts.

the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 6:50 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so much for the thread remaining civil

it stopped being civil when you started "playing" devil's advocate

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all

maybe english isn't your first language, but he was talking about "victims of sexual abuse" in general, not the specific victim of this case.

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

"I believe the woman" is really a pretty safe/reasonable starting position, Gira's heightened, panicky response compared to the very measured, considered statements of hers that I've read didn't do anything to challenge my baseline assumption (much as I would love to not tarnish my warm feelings towards Swans)

"I have no idea what happened," is probably an even safer and more reasonable starting position. "Nothing good is going to come from this thread henceforth," is another one.

I don't really get the "measured tone v. panicked tone, AWFULLY suspicious" thing.

yes, I think that the allegation is more likely to be true than not, but idg why a 'heightened, panicky response' further convinces Simon H that Gira is guilty - it's not like you'd expect someone being falsely accused of rape to be relaxed about the situation, even if the accusation was made in a 'measured, considered' way, surely

I admit it might be partially because it realllly reminds me of the tone taken by Jian Ghomeshi in his initial FB statement - going straight to apparent victim-blaming/shaming pretty much immediately

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Let's just say for a second -- yes, I know, it's a HILARIOUS thought -- that he's innocent. In that purely hypothetical instance, wouldn't you think it he'd be entitled to legal action?

Wait you found it moving?

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Come on, none of us have a clue what happened. And since it's unlikely that there would be criminal proceedings against Michael Gira - given the length of time which has passed since the alleged event took place, not to mention the apparent lack of external witnesses present in Larkin Grimm's account - it comes down to only a few real possibilities.

1) We never know the truth for certain.

2) The "proof" Jennifer Gira mentions is credible enough to dispel the validity of Larkin Grimm's claims against Michael Gira.

3) That Michael Gira makes some sort of formal statement acknowledging Grimm's claims.

4) Enough alleged victims with credible stories come out against Michael Gira, à la Bill Cosby, to give substance to Grimm's claims.

5) Grimm admits she made the whole thing up.

Beyond wishing for justice for whoever is the damaged party, what more can you say?

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 7:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When was I doing this, exactly?

we're constantly bathed in seconhand narrative. i tend to be suspicious of the vast majority of it. applies in situations like this to both accusations of crime and protestations of innocence.

is michael gira guilty of rape? hell if i know. it's clearly none of my damn business.

As somebody who has spent money on Mr. Gira's recordings, it is quite literally my business.

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

I've been down this whole road before in activist communities, and I've made the mistake of splitting hairs and being all "BUT WHAT IF..." before. If it's bullshit, it will become obvious in time. For now, just believe the women. And guess what, you can believe a woman's account without demonizing the man.

gonna walk away again here.

^^^^^^

Well, guess what everyone!

http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-larkin-grimm-rape-accusations/

Eight years ago, while I was still married to my first wife, Larkin Grimm and I headed towards a consensual romantic moment that fortunately was not consummated. As she wrote in her recent social media postings about that night, I said to her, "this doesn't feel right," and abruptly but completely our only intimate encounter ended. It was an awkward mistake.
Larkin may regret, as I certainly do, that the ill-advised tryst went even that far, but now, as then, I hold her in high esteem for her music and her courage as an artist.
I long ago apologized to my wife and family and told them the truth about this incident. My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

And it was a 'slanderous lie' last night.

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, wow. the whole thing is kind of weasely but this part especially.

not kind of, really. it seems like he is admitting it happened -- he doesn't refute any part of her claim -- but trying to recast it in this very passive voice type of way.

yikes. i guess he's "evolved" on this issue, then?

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape.

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

people’s opinions on specific incidents — which have no necessary relation to larger trends— seem to depend on what one finds more "believable"— that lots of men are capable of rape, or that lots of women are capable of lying about rape. in every case this is deeply embedded in ideology, personal experience, various cognitive biases, etc.

er, not "in confidence" but rather "with confidence"

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, i'm really sure this is his "hope"

gira is all christlike and shit

gira was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see

I am thankful that Michael made a statement so transparently abusive that I feel unmixed resolve in tossing out the terrible Swans records I never bought

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:02 (2 hours ago) Permalink

"it's a slanderous lie!"
"ok some of it was a lie"
"well... none of it was really a lie"
"actually... i did worse/more stuff that you don't even know about yet"

as if we haven't seen rapists follow this same pattern before.

it's disturbing to see so many comments from sexual assault survivors - not just jennifer gira - assuming that larkin is lying and that they have experienced 'real' 'true' rape.

In her case you'd have to say coming to accept her husband might be one of the rapists would be such a horrible thing to accept that any amou t of psychological twisting about of others experinces would be easier to cope with

i wouldn't be surprised if gira really believes that she consented, bc consent is such a gray area to a lot of ppl, but the problem is her telling him straight up that she did not consent and him refusing to acknowledge that. maybe if he had, they could have had a really useful conversation and things wouldn't have come to this.

and that's the point i get from larkin - a lot of men (and women) could make a serious mistake like this (of not seeking enthusiastic consent), it doesn't make them a monster; more than the rape itself, the aftermath is what was most damaging bc of his refusal to see what he had done. and that characterizes much of rape culture in general.

^^^ just1n3 you are doing a much better job of articulating what I was trying to upthread -- seems like larkin tried/is trying v.hard to meet him halfway on this, & he just refused to back down ('rape is monstrous + I am not a monster = that weren't no rape')

I mean I hate to be flip but everybody makes mistakes, right?

Men go crazy about "defending my good name" or w/e because they feel there is a bright line between themselves & the wrong kind of men, the men who rape, which line cannot be crossed without forever losing a part of their humanity; but in reality there is a thick fog, men cross the line all the time, knowingly or not, hoping that nobody sees them coming back; & "good name" is just another trump card dudes hold, which can be used to shut down the subsequent inquiry into what, exactly, they were doing over there on that particularly foggy night.

If one accepts (as one should) the basic feminist premise that power is distributed unequally between individuals in our society, & further accepts the notion that unpunished sexual assaults are widespread (especially in places like the music industry, where the kind of organizing & institutional oversight that could potentially push back against the boys' club do not exist), it seems to follow that one should tread lightest where he feels most unassailable. The very fact that "explanations" are so easily found & believed, and above all believed by us as we speak them, is an index which leads back to that same fundamental power imbalance.

... now if you'll excuse me I have to relisten to this song while soaking in the bitter irony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHcV0CSEvz4

I'll kill that man, I'll kill that man
I'll hunt him down & make him understand
What he's done to you

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

― wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:57 AM (9 hours ago)

https://rainn.org/statistics
http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Larkin posted this in an FB comment in response:

I have this statement to give in response to Michael's admission of guilt.
This is a perfect example of why we need to have education about consent. In a gentlemanly move he admits the act happened but cannot conceive of himself as a rapist. Thank you Michael Gira for your honesty. This is your truth as you remember it. Unfortunately, this was still rape. I said no to you many times before that day, begged you not to interfere with me sexually, even made it a part of a verbal agreement we had when I signed a contract with you. I asked you to promise that you would never have sex with me. You assured me that I could trust you. That is about as clear a NO as I could ever cry. I asked for this because I had had other experiences in my music career and I KNEW.

That night I was far too intoxicated to give you consent for any sexual act. The psychological effects of this betrayal were devastating. Even worse, when I finally confronted you about what you had done, you terminated my relationship with Young God Records, damaging my career and leading people to believe there was something wrong with me or my music.

In the end, this is about business. Art is my career. I have worked long and hard for this career, making incredible sacrifices along the way to continue to make music. The fact that a man in power can throw a women's life and work away like they are garbage, simply because she won't sleep with him, is an immoral injustice that happens to many, many women in music. I won't stand for it and neither should you.

We don't lose our common sense just because there's a sensitive topic. The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me). Gira isn't a trustworthy source either.

Nobody will ever know what happened, and nothing productive is going to come from this thread.

Nobody has quoted "Trust Me" yet, which is a strange oversight, in a kind of horrible way.

xp well-said *fucks off back to a more productive corner of ILX*

The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me).

There is absolutely nothing "crazy" about this in context, also can we please keep "crazy" tf out of this thread

yeah dlp that was very disappointing

I'm sorry, but it isn't. I see two very unreliable people, both making bad choices, and I have no idea what actually happened. As a result, I don't think this thread is serving any real purpose.

then fucking go away

Good advice.

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations

in which she relates her experience

should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort

in which she casts her own experience as the standard for what rape is

which is an interesting tactic considering "it didn't happen" in the first place, right?

the idea of making a "retort" when someone says they were raped is so fucked up in the first place. this is like master class in how not to respond to an assault allegation.

^^^^^

"THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN AND SHE IS A LYING HARPY (but if it did.....it wasn't a real rape because i experienced a real rape and i know)"