Swans: Classic or Dud?

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:29 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

well it's pretty clear that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't work for something like 98% of rape cases, when it's so painfully clear that the system has failed it's really NAGL to suggest it as a reasonable option here.

great posts emil.y.

xp

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

walking away from thread for a while before I get really mad

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

Yes, of course I'd believe you, but that analogy doesn't work here. If instead of "someone stole my car" you told me "(specific person x) just stole my car!," I'd probably have to ask a few follow up questions before rounding up a posse.

Even, "someone stole my car" is subject to question. Sorry, but people lie about all sorts of things, all the time. That applies to everyone in this story. The idea that we can somehow guess who's lying and who's telling the truth is insane. Unless you have proof, you don't know. I hate speculative conversations like this.

If someone said that their car was stolen, I'd have no opinion at all until I looked into the details.

I have no idea what happened. Probably nobody else does, other than the parties involved. Threads like this are like wondering about trees falling in the forest.

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

― emil.y, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:39 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is amazing.

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

― StanM, Friday, February 26, 2016 10:22 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nah fuck that. the only "side" that matters is the truth. it's fascinating!

As far as people believing crime victims all the time, I'd suggest looking into allegations of abuse by prisoners. People don't believe victims of crime all the time at all. That is simply wrong.

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, February 26, 2016 12:48 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that article that Ned posted upthread is in fact really good.

While Potiker was surprised and hopeful about the way this story unfolded, with other women backing each other up, she cautions that coming forward publicly won’t be helpful for all women.

“We do have to remember that some of these survivors were pretty high profile, so this isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution,” she said. “‘Random girl with no Internet following accuses music publicist of sexual misconduct’ isn’t a great headline. For women who don’t have a big social media following and support system, a tweet about abuse might do more harm than good. Social media can be a platform where we reach a lot of people, and make sure our stories are made public on our own terms and in our own words, but the major thing to remember is that coming forward isn’t an option for every woman. We have to make sure not to make share your stories the rallying cry. We cannot imply that women who don’t feel comfortable sharing their stories should feel guilty for not doing so.”

One of the most common responses survivors of sexual assault face when they come forward is the question of why they don’t report the incident to the police. In some cases, reporting the assault can be just as traumatic as the initial experience.

“It’s very individual, when you report to the police, what kind of response you will get,” Chaiet said. Good training for police is critical,” Chaiet said. “People of all backgrounds have shared with me that the reporting of the crime was an awful process. They are challenged, judged, disbelieved, and even turned away from making a report. So it’s always the victim’s choice what to do.”

Even if survivors do choose to go to the police, the legal system itself rarely convicts those accused of rape or sexual assault. RAINN reports that only 3% of rapists ever see a conviction, and the victims who accuse their abusers often suffer even more after the legal system fails them.

also I have never heard Swans.

it's fascinating!

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau)

Hey. Don't.

In response to a few different points being brought up:

People tend to be more skeptical of victims when they are marginilzed groups of people, like women (and like the abused prisoners you mentioned, dlp9001).

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

well I think dlp is right there, there's a difference between saying "I was victimized" and "person X did this to me". if someone says "I was raped 10 years ago" I don't think people are going to run to discredit them, but once you bring in the name of someone who is famous and sort of irrationally loved by thousands of people, that's when the mental gymnastics start coming out.

interested in hearing more about the Thomas Sayers Ellis incident. I'm usually pretty plugged into literary circles but that incident seems to ahve been eclipsed by the Gira allegation. So what happened between Ellis and his girlfriend in front of all these people? And what did he say about Grimm onstage that was so humiliating? Any reports?

Food for thought:

http://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

enough with the fucking open letters already

You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare.

i am? news to me.

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all and I'm actually pretty relieved that this thread has remained as civil as it has. I'm eager to hear people's opinions about this (beyond Gira / Grimm) because I think these discussions are important.

Anyway, Travisssss, your analogy also falls flat. When a band gets their gear stolen, their gear is gone. Short of an brilliant, elaborate scheme in which they get trusted friends to temporarily "hide" all the guitars and amps and keyboards and laptops that were ostensibly stolen, the fact is: band had gear, band no longer has gear. You don't see how this situation is different?

from the article, i thought it was worth posting here

http://d1o2xrel38nv1n.cloudfront.net/files/2014/05/2014-04-10-pltm196-1.jpg

Wow, that's pretty presumptuous. On several counts.

All I'm advocating is letting things play out and examining facts before passing the sort of judgment that could potentially destroy someone's life. I don't think that's a very outrageous position to take.

most rape accusations are truthful
a few are lies
Michael Gira is probably a rapist.
But we can't know for sure.
Lock thread.

^

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

^

thank god y'all are here to defend poor michael gira

Nobody is doing that here xp

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Yeah

I expect Michael Gira, like Conor Oberst, will sue. So:

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Wait you found it moving?

Horrible story. Hopefully the truth comes out one day. Even though I'm sure 99% of the time, the person accused of rape actually performed the crime, sometimes they're not. Cases like the Brian Banks one come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)

"sometimes"

emil.y, crut, sleeve massively OTM. the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

Travissss too, great posts.

the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 6:50 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so much for the thread remaining civil

it stopped being civil when you started "playing" devil's advocate

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all

maybe english isn't your first language, but he was talking about "victims of sexual abuse" in general, not the specific victim of this case.

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

"I believe the woman" is really a pretty safe/reasonable starting position, Gira's heightened, panicky response compared to the very measured, considered statements of hers that I've read didn't do anything to challenge my baseline assumption (much as I would love to not tarnish my warm feelings towards Swans)

"I have no idea what happened," is probably an even safer and more reasonable starting position. "Nothing good is going to come from this thread henceforth," is another one.

I don't really get the "measured tone v. panicked tone, AWFULLY suspicious" thing.

yes, I think that the allegation is more likely to be true than not, but idg why a 'heightened, panicky response' further convinces Simon H that Gira is guilty - it's not like you'd expect someone being falsely accused of rape to be relaxed about the situation, even if the accusation was made in a 'measured, considered' way, surely

I admit it might be partially because it realllly reminds me of the tone taken by Jian Ghomeshi in his initial FB statement - going straight to apparent victim-blaming/shaming pretty much immediately

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Let's just say for a second -- yes, I know, it's a HILARIOUS thought -- that he's innocent. In that purely hypothetical instance, wouldn't you think it he'd be entitled to legal action?

Wait you found it moving?

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Come on, none of us have a clue what happened. And since it's unlikely that there would be criminal proceedings against Michael Gira - given the length of time which has passed since the alleged event took place, not to mention the apparent lack of external witnesses present in Larkin Grimm's account - it comes down to only a few real possibilities.

1) We never know the truth for certain.

2) The "proof" Jennifer Gira mentions is credible enough to dispel the validity of Larkin Grimm's claims against Michael Gira.

3) That Michael Gira makes some sort of formal statement acknowledging Grimm's claims.

4) Enough alleged victims with credible stories come out against Michael Gira, à la Bill Cosby, to give substance to Grimm's claims.

5) Grimm admits she made the whole thing up.

Beyond wishing for justice for whoever is the damaged party, what more can you say?

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 7:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When was I doing this, exactly?