Swans: Classic or Dud?

otm

yup

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

Oh I don't know about that the actual allegations are pretty gross (esp. the pattern of harassment).

xp ... not that I'm tryna write a thinkpiece about it or anything, but it feels like there's this weird double-bind characterizing our particular cultural moment: people assume that the "rape allegation as character assassination" narrative still makes sense, even as we try to move towards a culture in which the stigma of "being a rapist" is, if not lessened, then certainly different*... in which case, the real crime** is being tethered to an outdated mentality which demands smearing the accuser to protect one's good name

*: because keeping that stigma intact allows us to think of rape as a rare occurrence, perpetrated by insane people
**: "the real crime" = in the eyes of the gossipy internet-driven public sphere that passes character judgments -- obviously from the standpoint of the legal system, the real crime is still rape

anyway, that's the last I'll say on this subject. I'm on the verge of tears listening to The Seer right now. it's been a tough week.

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

― Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy)

this was my reaction as well, the stark contrast between Grimm's clear-eyed, very compassionate take on things and Gira's ugly defensive hatefulness is so jarring.

P4K headline on this comes down heavily on Gira's side of things. "Swans' Michael Gira Calls Rape Accusations by Former Collaborator Larkin Grimm a "Slanderous Lie".

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

And I'm guessing often based on sex. My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

― frogbs, Friday, February 26, 2016 8:40 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not proof she have, it's PROOF

But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

It seems insane for someone to do that, but it is not unprecedented.

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

I am not expressing any endorsement of Gira's or Grimm's "side" of this story in what I'm about to say. False accusations of rape when the two people are on a more or less socially equal level are extremely rare. However, there is a subset of accusations leveled at famous men by non-famous women. David Bowie was accused of rape in 1987; the charges were rejected by a grand jury. Conor Oberst was falsely accused, as the link above reveals. I'm sure there are other examples but I'm not about to go looking for them.

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?"

In this case, I'll give it a shot, if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment (because I have no more idea who is telling the truth than you do): a person desperate to be famous at any cost accuses a public figure of the most despicable, inexcusable, heinous crime there is. Hours later, said public figure has been tried and convicted by the internet, while Pitchfork, Spin, Stereogum, etc all lead with headlines bearing the previously-forgotten-by-almost-everyone name "Larkin Grimm."

I realize that probably reads like some of the disgusting comments section talk you refer to, and while I am loath to even advance such a theory, I mention it because I also don't feel comfortable with the idea that someone can be transformed into a pariah based on a Facebook post. I also wouldn't have felt comfortable commenting on this if Jennifer Gira hadn't spoken out first. I would sooner stay out of it entirely than align myself with an idiotic lynch mob of starstruck dudes blaming the victim. If it happened, it's fucked up and MG should suffer the consequences. But what if it didn't?

I guess I put that scenario in the "sociopathic or too narcissistic to think clearly" file, which other than revenge for something that nobody has yet made public, is the only scenario I see (other than believing the accuser) that explains it. I mean, I HOPE it's not true, for the each of their sakes, but my gut feeling is that there are a lot more people who never report things that really did happen than there are false accusers.

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape. It might be the case that famous people are more frequently falsely accused, but they are also more likely to have entitlement and power issues that make them think they're allowed to do anything they want.

Both of these posts sadly accurate:

reading Jennifer Gira's post I was thinking that even if that pattern of behavior is true, it wouldn't exactly be inconsistent with what Grimm is saying. "Traumatized victim behaves erratically, threatens revenge" is not an unlikely scenario.

― A nationally known air show announcer/personality (tipsy mothra), Friday, February 26, 2016 2:00 PM (1 hour ago)

"actual rapist accuses victim of being mentally unstable & bent on revenge as soon as the truth comes out" is not an unlikely scenario either

― crüt, Friday, February 26, 2016 2:01 PM (1 hour ago)

The thing that stuck out most from Jennifer Gira's response was that she seemed to be implying that she had been *really* raped, because it was by a stranger. Am I reading that wrong? Because you're wayyyyy more likely to be raped by someone you know.

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape. It might be the case that famous people are more frequently falsely accused, but they are also more likely to have entitlement and power issues that make them think they're allowed to do anything they want.

Both these statements are true. And with that, I withdraw, as I have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of this situation.

xp Absolutely. But a false accusation does more harm than good for people who have legitimately been victimized and only encourages unthinking people to continue to place the burden of proof on the victim while all the while looking for holes in her story, citing precedent (as top man did above)

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Actually, scratch my last paragraph. While I stand by the "you're more likely to be raped by someone you know" element, the last thing I want to do is end up scrutinising another woman's trauma.

more likely than not, coming out as a rape victim, you are going to be a victim of character assassination and other forms of intense bullying. it's not that you have to be a sociopathic or nihilsit to lie about these things, it's that you have to be completely unaware of how the process of coming out will be painful. part of how rape culture works is that there is basically zero benefit to post things like Larkin Grimm posted.

None of us here know the truth though so it seems wrong to comment or take a side until much more is known. Its horrible and I hope the truth comes out - whatever that may be.

That should not be read as taking any particular side. It also means avoid comments on the story reported elsewhere.

Glad to see the this thread turning respectful to victims.

Just wanted to chime in that very few rape accusations are false. And that no career has every been helped by falsely accusing someone of rape.

The two examples of musicians being falsely accused up thread (if indeed the accusations were false) weren't accused by aspiring musicians, and in no way did the accusers benefit from it. Pretending that only the accused gets tried and convicted by the Internet is disingenuous and harmful.

There's no more need on the Internet for people to play devil's advocate against rape victims ever again, I'm sure of that.

I linked this elsewhere but this new article is deeply, highly relevant right this second.

http://www.bkmag.com/2016/02/26/aftermath-and-recovery-heathcliff-berru-speaks-and-reporting-on-sexual-assault-in-the-music-industry/

The problem is, partly because the law is shit at dealing with this, partly because usually both sides stick to their stories completely, it is highly unlikely that any *objective truth* will ever be known. Even if someone gets jailed for it, their supporters will still keep on with the idea that it was consensual or not "real rape". Or, more commonly, the man doesn't get jailed because of lack of evidence, but lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is entirely up to the individual what they do with the information laid out for them. I still rate Repulsion as one of the greatest films ever made. I still listen to [insert a musician I love who has done a terrible thing here, I actually can't think of one but there are bound to be many]. It is easier when someone is in the past, much easier when they are dead, to elide over their faults. It is incredibly hard when they are still active.

Personally my response is to believe everyone who comes out with a story like this, but look at what can be done to remedy the fact that it is so widespread rather than concentrate on the individual perpetrator. The problem with this is that it is both easy and just to punish a perpetrator, and it is hard to the point of impossible to know what to do about society.

Pretending that only the accused gets tried and convicted by the Internet is disingenuous and harmful.

There's no more need on the Internet for people to play devil's advocate against rape victims ever again, I'm sure of that.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 4:59 PM (11 minutes ago)

OTM OTM OTM

dud

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

we're not throwing michael gira in jail

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:29 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

well it's pretty clear that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't work for something like 98% of rape cases, when it's so painfully clear that the system has failed it's really NAGL to suggest it as a reasonable option here.

great posts emil.y.

xp

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

walking away from thread for a while before I get really mad

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

Yes, of course I'd believe you, but that analogy doesn't work here. If instead of "someone stole my car" you told me "(specific person x) just stole my car!," I'd probably have to ask a few follow up questions before rounding up a posse.

Even, "someone stole my car" is subject to question. Sorry, but people lie about all sorts of things, all the time. That applies to everyone in this story. The idea that we can somehow guess who's lying and who's telling the truth is insane. Unless you have proof, you don't know. I hate speculative conversations like this.

If someone said that their car was stolen, I'd have no opinion at all until I looked into the details.

I have no idea what happened. Probably nobody else does, other than the parties involved. Threads like this are like wondering about trees falling in the forest.

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

― emil.y, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:39 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is amazing.

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

― StanM, Friday, February 26, 2016 10:22 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nah fuck that. the only "side" that matters is the truth. it's fascinating!

As far as people believing crime victims all the time, I'd suggest looking into allegations of abuse by prisoners. People don't believe victims of crime all the time at all. That is simply wrong.

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, February 26, 2016 12:48 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that article that Ned posted upthread is in fact really good.

While Potiker was surprised and hopeful about the way this story unfolded, with other women backing each other up, she cautions that coming forward publicly won’t be helpful for all women.

“We do have to remember that some of these survivors were pretty high profile, so this isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution,” she said. “‘Random girl with no Internet following accuses music publicist of sexual misconduct’ isn’t a great headline. For women who don’t have a big social media following and support system, a tweet about abuse might do more harm than good. Social media can be a platform where we reach a lot of people, and make sure our stories are made public on our own terms and in our own words, but the major thing to remember is that coming forward isn’t an option for every woman. We have to make sure not to make share your stories the rallying cry. We cannot imply that women who don’t feel comfortable sharing their stories should feel guilty for not doing so.”

One of the most common responses survivors of sexual assault face when they come forward is the question of why they don’t report the incident to the police. In some cases, reporting the assault can be just as traumatic as the initial experience.

“It’s very individual, when you report to the police, what kind of response you will get,” Chaiet said. Good training for police is critical,” Chaiet said. “People of all backgrounds have shared with me that the reporting of the crime was an awful process. They are challenged, judged, disbelieved, and even turned away from making a report. So it’s always the victim’s choice what to do.”

Even if survivors do choose to go to the police, the legal system itself rarely convicts those accused of rape or sexual assault. RAINN reports that only 3% of rapists ever see a conviction, and the victims who accuse their abusers often suffer even more after the legal system fails them.

also I have never heard Swans.

it's fascinating!

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau)

Hey. Don't.

In response to a few different points being brought up:

People tend to be more skeptical of victims when they are marginilzed groups of people, like women (and like the abused prisoners you mentioned, dlp9001).

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

well I think dlp is right there, there's a difference between saying "I was victimized" and "person X did this to me". if someone says "I was raped 10 years ago" I don't think people are going to run to discredit them, but once you bring in the name of someone who is famous and sort of irrationally loved by thousands of people, that's when the mental gymnastics start coming out.

interested in hearing more about the Thomas Sayers Ellis incident. I'm usually pretty plugged into literary circles but that incident seems to ahve been eclipsed by the Gira allegation. So what happened between Ellis and his girlfriend in front of all these people? And what did he say about Grimm onstage that was so humiliating? Any reports?

Food for thought:

http://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

enough with the fucking open letters already

You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare.

i am? news to me.