Are you cool with forks making Spotify playlists out of every rolling thread without permission?

Glenn has been posting to ILM since before I have though! Like at least a decade. I can see why people get frustrated with the line he toes on the Spotify thread specifically but banning him from the whole rest of the site seems idk, excessive?

meanwhile Οὖτις has been posting here for less than a year (unless s/he changed display names)

permission? From who exactly?

Oh, okay, it's just about moral objections to spotify. Part of the reason why I don't use it is b/c I do prefer to give my money direct via bandcamps/purchases at shows, but yeah, sorry, having a moral objection to a platform that so many people use isn't anywhere near enough to warrant a policy banning forks from creating his playlists.

I also have a feeling that this thread was started in order to create a clusterfuck, which will no doubt happen.

We got one guy who wants a clusterfuck and a few people who have their own concerns and axes to grind. It seems clusterfuck avoidable.

you don't once consider the 'content creators' and Spotify's effect on their livelihood (or, if you don't give a shit about their ability to clothe, feed themselves, their ability to continue creating the art you enjoy enough to get "free and/or cheap.").
― Jimmywine Dyspeptic, Thursday, February 4, 2016

as it happens, i work in the live performance industry and am acutely aware of the economics involved in being a professional musician or anyone who works tangential to that world. I've also been discussing artist rights issues vs. listener rights issues for at least the past fourteen years.... often on ILX!

I have my misgivings about spotify's financial model but the biggest culprits are almost certainly the major labels who allowed spotify into the ring only if they colluded in perpetuating an outdated business model to keep a dying industry afloat for another decade or two. Here's the thing though: I've come to terms with using spotify for my own personal use and that's my call. You clearly have not and that's your call. But there is a difference between not eating meat and telling other people who are at the party that they shouldn't eat meat. I'm totally okay with this not being something you want to use and (as brimstead said while I was posting this) it's a perfectly reasonable objection to have. I would maybe question why you feel the need to leave the party because I'm having a hamburger but it's fair for you to do so!

Οὖτις is a very well-established poster under a new alias, fwiw.

(that's to maura if that wasn't clear)

glenn has been posting here I think before _I_ got here. he's fairly integral to the board and he's somebody who has also wasted numberless hours arranging our collective dumb thoughts into spreadsheets. It seems a dick move to negatively name check him here for no particular reason.

Not even that new, it's been like 1.5 years.

xp My opposition is to the larger boogieman of Spotify itself, not to its application to / on ILX*. Your own explanation is reasonable and I don't take any more issue with it than I do with my otherwise progressive, farmer's market-shopping friend who likes to eat at McDonalds once in a while.

(* I tend to think, perhaps romantically, that the record nerds and deep diggers of ILX would have many of the same issues with Spotify that I do: that it not only hurts artists ((which is too big an argument for this thread and one I wouldn't mind agreeing to disagree about for now)) but also compromises the listening experience, making the very act of listening superficial and cheap. It's just not a way I interface with music. I realize this is just my own experience, and I'm certainly not trying to speak for anyone else.

I'm not wild about Youtube, either, but the Youtube links seem to come in song-sized embeds, and don't offer the entire discography of an artist at the click of a mouse.

The reason I specifically objected in the post-Takoma thread is that that thread in particular is full of people who are being directly affected by streaming; not a lot of Kanyes or Adeles being discussed in that thread. And I can see certain of those people--label owners, artists, etc--taking exception to it.

you guys do whatever the hell you want but calling out glenn is really fucked up

xp Ha, weird that we used the same meat-eating analogy - I replied before I saw your last post!

can't believe glenn got banned

glenn banzig

http://www.big-t-shirts.com/ProdImages/big/who-gives-a-shit.jpg_1244.jpg

I've never seen Glenn on anything but the Spotify thread, if I've missed something I apologize. Still find that thread gross though.

I've been here since 2001 fwiw.

xp lol, was waiting for it and i got it

if your perspective of the issue is "romantic", by which i take you to mean idealistically principled, what does it matter if it's Adele or the indiest boy in indy folk who is losing some unspecifiable percentage of a penny because someone chose to listen on one service over another?

here is one of many cool things glenn done did:
Mapping All Music

Misgivings about Spotify/YouTube/life aside, everything forks is saying is perfectly reasonable. What's not reasonable is keeping a clusterfuck/witch-hunt poll like this open for three weeks.

I've never seen Glenn on anything but the Spotify thread, if I've missed something I apologize. Still find that thread gross though.

I've been here since 2001 fwiw.

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:10 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he's a regular in the metal thread and has been forever

Doesn't Glenn tabulate Pazz & Jop these days, fwiw?

Misgivings about Spotify/YouTube/life aside, everything forks is saying is perfectly reasonable. What's not reasonable is keeping a clusterfuck/witch-hunt poll like this open for three weeks.

― dc, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:12 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^^^

Glenn's willingness to honestly engage with folks on the spotify thread and his selflessness in transparency of posting there (under his real name yet!) is imo genuinely laudable and provides insight not available elsewhere. You would rather he didn't respond to issues that he actually has the wherewithal to talk about?

i am fighting the urge to start an answer poll of "Are you cool with Mattress starting a clusterfuck thread than ends in three weeks?" and then ending that poll in three weeks.

Just because I got curious and did the searching, Glenn's first ILM post is from Mar. 9, 2001 and his web presence is linked in the rec.music.reviews FAQ from 1996. He is as old-school of an internet music nerd as anybody here, and the strength of this site IMHO is that it still maintains a critical mass of those kind of people (old and new), generous in their musings and their list-making. I think people are allowed to stay on ILM even when their current job is for a company a lot of people don't like. Even when I've disagreed with him on the Spotify thread specifically it's kinda like, I mean, he doesn't have to post anything there. While it seems reasonable to assume there are things he can't say there for reasons of employment (not exactly a unique position among ILXors), I seeeeeeeriously doubt his Spotify overlords are cracking the whip to make sure a couple dozen people on the nerdiest of all message boards hear out their side of the story.

Huh. Live and learn

Can I fp myself?

no but as penance you must start a three-week poll about whether you should be banned from the internet for life, and only glenn can vote

Sounds fair

you should just take all the songs, mix them, upload them to soundcloud and post them on DJs post your mixes for download instead

― mookieproof, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 6:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just in case mookieproof wasn't clear enough, i'm a dj, i post my mixes to soundcloud, and then post the link to the mixes on that thread, where it's available to stream and/or download. soundcloud is a convenient hosting option for this but i'm happy to share my work in other ways.

forks, what bothers me about your project is how exclusive spotify is to it. good metadata is valuable, and you're harvesting it for one organization. do they in turn have an open metadata policy? how exportable are their playlists?

would you be open to modifying your project somewhat to include links to bandcamp, discogs, artist websites, youtube? maybe in a platform-neutral format? or is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization? because that's sure what it looks like.

... to me, and the reason my tone about all of this has been so dickish, for which i apologize.

the hell? is there something i don't know about forks that would make his/her super involved spare-time project look suspicious in this way to you? fwiw, imho, antagonizing someone and then suggest they do five to six times as much more work for you is maybe not as good a look as offering to help with that, or something. you raise some interesting points that could be interesting fodder for constructive criticism re: metadata and the value for spotify - - --- although let's be honest is spotify really going to see their profit margin leap because of these playlists? moreso than anybody else's, or carly rae jepsen's? or is it your concern that they will turn around and basically rip these off to create a marketable, hypeable product, "check out our new curated playlists, What's Next In Fruity Swag Goon Music 2016 - EDITOR'S PICKS!!!" ...? ----- but the interesting conversation side of it is kind of foreclosed if you're impugning the motives/character of the poster in question.

forks has discussed his/her method and choices a bit, see posts starting at this permalink Listening to ILX Listen - 2015 Spotify Genre Playlists ; i believe that (s)he is sincere. if it looks like a classic internet music lover list-making project, and sounds like a classic internet music lover list-making project...

I'm pretty sure what forks is doing is more benevolent and nerdy and ocd than shilling for spotify or whatever. If you wanna trash spotify, fine, but don't trash forks.

#notallplaylists

"check out our new curated playlists, What's Next In Fruity Swag Goon Music 2016 - EDITOR'S PICKS!!!" ...?

They do do this fwiw. See my last post on the Spotify thread re: stealing my friends' online radio station playlists.

ps i miss forks' scare quotes (not scare quotes) comedy title edits

I'm cool with enthusiasm.

i don't use spotify and i don't mind forks making playlists, but i would be bummed if mattress stopped posting on bobbins threads

If you wanna trash spotify, fine, but don't trash forks.

Just for the record, that is exactly what I've been doing. I don't know forks but I enjoy his posts and will concede that he's made some good points / offered some food for thought wrt Spotify and its place here on ILX

is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization? because that's sure what it looks like.

This literally has never ever crossed my mind as being a thing that forks' project could possibly look like. What it looks like is a music dork obsessively compiling lists, and then being nice and sharing them with people.

or is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization? because that's sure what it looks like.

I know that you specified "...to me" afterwards, but I want to foreground it, because I've worked in the music business for 20 years and I cannot imagine viewing forks's project in this light, nor can I imagine anyone I know coming to any comparable conclusion

Incredibly stupid thread. Fuck off. The playlists are cool. Private message each other. Christ.

Lol "experts"

i'm all for enthusiasm and big projects too. but when that gets used as a tactic to shut down legitimate concerns.. i have to admit that's a pet peeve of mine. since this is such a selfless project, i imagine forks will take into account the preferences of the many artists mentioned in these threads who don't like spotify and who make money from other avenues and include some equivalent way of showing support for these artists in his list-making enthusiasm.

xp to emil.y and joan, fair enough.

Mod Request: please move this thread to Ask Dr. Freud.

Incredibly stupid thread. Fuck off. The playlists are cool. Private message each other. Christ.

lol this is one of his better ones

the rolling threads should be paywalled with proceeds going to the experts, who may or may not choose to share with the artists extolled therein

god you're a fucking lowlife, go back to bed

Okay, just expunged some of the weird mojo of this thread by following some of forks other playlists, in particular Meet Elmo Hope.

this is an open community with experts in it (i never claimed to be one of them ffs). i'd hate to see it linked to one company out of hand. i care about the bobbins thread and i want more exposure for those artists (i'm under no illusion that some doofus on a message board has an appreciable amount of influence, but why not be enthusiastic about it and do it in a way you think will benefit someone the most?). i wouldn't mind doing a list for just bobbins with links to youtube, discogs, bandcamp, etc. it would probably make more sense anyway because a fair amount of those people release on vinyl only. if forks wants to talk about it more, he can shout at me off this, struggin @ gmail.

i voted no bc the project seems a little compulsive and forks has discussed it using those v words and maybe it would be liberating to be freed from the self-imposed obligation w/ a majority of 'no' votes

xp i could also put in links to whatever spotify playlist forks wants to make so it's not like a turf thing, just equal opportunity consumption. that's really my issue i guess, artists or listeners who choose not to use spotify are left out. there's the chance to do something that supplements this project (and i'm realizing it isn't neccessarily forks' responsibility to do it). i started this off in a counterproductive way as per usual, hope i can still talk to forks about doing an alternative with the bobbins thread.

lol katherine

where do young people discuss music these days?

on the toilet

Twitter

snapchats of moleskines

and drone filmed facebook live post

and rustic batard

I kind of like that the youtubes disappear, that a record wafts in on the breeze and after a while off it goes again. There are too many records, most of them are bad, and the few good ones lead to serene feelings not speaking. a doff of the cap is its sentence on the page

https://open.spotify.com/user/seaworthyset/playlist/5vo6FnevX854ltBDOsiWqY

so basically, the problem is simultaneously that Spotify playlists will forever draw people away from the thread, but also that YouTube links are impermanent

personally, I

1) get overwhelmed by bombardments of Youtube clips

2) don't use / like Spotify

and

3) prefer the more in-depth discussions found on dedicated album / artist / label threads

ghastly Rate Your Music nostalgia-wank polls

he he

another thread where the decline of the entire internet is discussed can be found here The Golden age of Internet comes to a close?

Pssh, 284 posts and no mention of forks's playlists. FAKE NEWS.

i just want to say for the record that tho i'm sympathetic to people who want forks to knock it off with the playlists it's ultimately not something that bothers me personally at all

but i do think it's lame and annoying that forks bumps rolling threads to note only that the playlist has been updated. it does begin to feel like somebody programmed a computer to eat the threads.

if forks has a different way to alert playlist subscribers that the playlist is updated then i think it's fine, and my apologies if this has already been addressed in this thread i didn't read

The reason why he tells you about it is probably that he's not a robot but an actual human bring putting in unpaid work for the benefit of the community so it would be nice if said community notices it, you know. A bumped thread hurts no one.

Spotify playlists on ILM: don't ask, don't tell.

^gets it

plug-in or applet or whatever the fuck that could pull all the music on a page by name seems like something that would catch on big if it was done right. This could be the next hipster puppies ILX success story. Call it "forks" and buy me dinner and I'll give you permission.
― ulysses, Thursday, 4 February 2016 21:52

I have a friend who's supposedly working on such an app at the moment by the way.
― posted with permission by (dog latin), Friday, February 5, 2016 9:01 AM

how did this work out dl?