Basic income

a lot of the dissatisfaction were seeing now with the job market has to do with a long term trend of replacing high paying stable jobs w low paying unstable ones which has mostly to do w the decline of labor unions imo

i say fine gut unions totally but replace them with just giving ppl money and lets call it even

i'll be honest, i'm one of the people who would sit and home and play video games under UBI

Isn't this the point of technology?

i wld play online poker

the next wave of american values we're gonna have to break will include 'shame people who sit home and play video games all day under ubi'

hard working video game players deserve our respect

we won't have an army anymore probably so it can be the new support the troops

yeah, eventually everyone will be grinding money in VR MMOs while robots do all their work irl

btw twitch streams look pretty great on my teevee

I get to watch other people get frustrated at ridiculous games like Destiny instead of hurling my own controller across the room

I'll take the twenty hour week, free education, free healthcare and good social welfare as a middle ground here but I'm p conservative so

pshh ya'll are so basic

Incoming

seriously though, I can't read a thread like this without thinking of that TNC reparations article, idk i think I typed some stuff above but that's all I have to add rn

I can read almost anything without thinking of tnc and its a very fine mode of existence indeed.

careful, some might call that privileged

Oh they'll be along I'm sure.

LOL!

idk i think I typed some stuff above but that's all I have to add rn

― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Thursday, January 28, 2016 5:36 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

mm yes noted

i'm fascinated by how it's captured the political imagination lately, i don't know why a VC firm is studying it we already have lots of research on how labor supply reacts to welfare

― flopson, Thursday, January 28, 2016 12:17 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah idk theres not a lot of information about just unconditionally giving everyone money it wld prob have pretty different outcomes than say our current system where only the extremely poor get money then if they start making money they dont get it anymore, obvs there are tons other way we give people money but theyre all contingent on certain /somethings/, data on just giving everyone money is pretty rare, tho not sure how y combinators going to address that

obvious point that I suspect you understand but only poor ppl would receive positive net transfers, as you make more money your tax receipts exceed the value of the transfer. so it just depends on how progressive taxes are.I guess the only difference between welfare is you don't have to sign up for it

I think the traction of the UBI idea is coming from a combination of a lot of poorly-managed office and service industry work that feels unproductive, increasing usage of gig economy jobs to boost discretionary income "whenever I feel like working" and increasing income and wealth inequality.

gig economy is not actually a thing fyi

obvious point that I suspect you understand but only poor ppl would receive positive net transfers, as you make more money your tax receipts exceed the value of the transfer. so it just depends on how progressive taxes are.I guess the only difference between welfare is you don't have to sign up for it

― flopson, Thursday, January 28, 2016 7:52 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it doesnt matter rich ppl still like social security and so forth

a lot of the dissatisfaction were seeing now with the job market has to do with a long term trend of replacing high paying stable jobs w low paying unstable ones which has mostly to do w the decline of labor unions imo

that "imo" is doing a lot of work lol. also that framing is kinda wrong. there are more very well paying jobs than ever (there was some census chart a couple weeks ago everyone was freaking out about showing that the share of workers in the middle class shrunk, but most of the shift was into jobs above middle class). but there are also more low pay unskilled service jobs (why I think wage subsidy is best) and less middle class manufacturing jobs (which has more to do w outsourcing (which is good if you care about ppl outside of the richest country in the world)) and other white collar routine/easily codifiable jobs that were replaced by computers which, idk it's prob good that people aren't like typists anymore). if anything unions would decrease the # of mid class jobs by raising the wage, that's like the point of a union; my dads union has voted to increase current workers pay to the max every year instead of hiring more ppl, they only hire when someone dies or quits. unions are still good imo (though more problematic than leftbros will ever admit) their decline just isnt solely responsible for these massive long term labor market changes (that also happened in other countries that didn't see a decline in unionization rates)

the place where youre drawing the line of "well playing is doing a lot of work here http://i.imgur.com/i8nGznp.gif

not to mention like ever wonder why low paying service jobs are low paying

cause anyone can do them

right unlike work in a car factory 50 years ago

which took the incredible skill of walking out of a high school and into a factory

why are some non unionized jobs well paid?

youre so close the world is about to open for you

btw I obvs believe in the union wage premium, but you can't say that's all that determines wages, or that well paying jobs only exist because unions restrict supply, if you extend that to the whole economy prices would blow up. one reason those factories paid well is cause they were really productive in a way a cashier isnt

they paid well because they organized and demanded to be paid well, before that they were not paid well

the country is a lot richer than it was then yet a lot of people who used to be middle class are falling into poverty, walmart is the biggest employer in the world and the walton family is the richest you really think they cldnt pay their ppl a living wage, they cld instead they took the money themselves this is not hard to understand

costco which arguably has thinner margins even than walmart pays their employees many of whom are cashiers a living wage

http://i68.tinypic.com/98woix.jpg

Explain this graph to me using unions

yet the reaction is still to throw ones hands up in the air and say globalism as a handful of people accumulate unimaginable wealth, great

they paid well because they organized and demanded to be paid well, before that they were not paid well

When did software engineers get organized?

I feel like ur trying to mix five different debates in here some of which I don't disagree w you on

Explain this graph to me using unions

― flopson, Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:37 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

were we talking abt the united states u smug piece of shit

so good paying middle class jobs disappeared in all the other countries for, some other reasons?

I'm glad I'm getting you riled up though, sick of having this argument with mh and dr casino

its weird how the making the shittiest banal neoliberal arguments in the most possible condescending tones will rile people up

(though more problematic than leftbros will ever admit)

combined with terrible online tics

you might consider that yr arguments just suck and are bad and are presented in an awful well then explain this (offers no explanation of what youre talking about) manner

like saying software engineers make good money when home health aids do not does not actually support yr argument you know

oh god "neoliberal", gimme a fn break dog. The only policy I've argued in favour of itt is giving low income workers wage subsidies (I also happen to think a minimum wage at about 50% of median wage would complement that well) but because I'm not unions uber alles I'm neoliberal? Sweden and god damn Norway have the same pattern of losing middle class jobs that you're attributing to decline of unions in the USA. You prob need to explain that for your theory to be convincing

yet youre like "hmmm what abt software engineers... eh??" as if youre holding some gem of knowledge no one has yet stumbled upon

well i dont know too much about finland and norways economy do you? do you really think manufacturing jobs are the only unskilled labor that could possibly pay a middle class wage

cld possibly the same problems be affecting europe as us in that as they lose manufacturing jobs ppl are tending towards work where their labor is exploited, seems like it cld be true

many unions in construction for ex contributed to occupational segregation well into the 60s/70s, that's what the "problematic" was referring to, which is something leftbros who are all " it's all about class maaan" seldom admit. sorry for using an annoying online tic, Internet guru dad

leftbro