Gay Marriage to Alfred: Your Thoughts

the conflict, in some ways, is that i think these rights are obvious and self-evident, and shouldn't even have to be bestowed by the state, as if they were some sort of gift.

yes, the op-ed piece is right. but i just fear that with the advent of these rights finally being bestowed, gays will become as complacent, as zombified as the rest of the population, if they're not already. that is, by accepting the rights given as parcel to this 'conservative dream,' i fear that gays will simply be subsumed (and assumed) into the larger cesspool of the capitalist dream.

so, it is not the right to marry that i am opposed to, really. it is the results of what will happen when these rights are finally given.

Most gays are already part of the capitalist dream, table -- or want to be. Since gays are as boring, awful, and predictable as our het brethren, there's no reason to project Genet-esque fantasies of subversion on them.

In my milieu it's subversive enough for an openly gay man to mingle and fuck freely amongst straight society -- and keep my identity.

tabes i think it's pretty selfish for you to be against gay marriage because you want all gays to be 'rebellious' or 'different' - imo you should want gays who would like to have the same rights as straights to be able to have those rights because of they deserve them, regardless of what the gays will 'turn into' after

just as i would say to a gay marriage opponent who wants to preserve the 'sanctity' of the word 'marriage', i ask you how your life would be personally affected by a couple who wants to get married officially getting married?

take, for example, when i went to a screening of 'Milk' at the Castro Theater. in line with many men (and some women), many of whom were married or had been planning to get married, i was confronted by a cohort of gays wearing matching shirts passing out fliers that warned people of 'dangerous elements' (read: homeless, mostly African-American or hispanic men) in the neighborhood that would 'steal your valuables and holiday gifts' from your car or your person. the racist and classist overtones inherent in this act are disgusting imho-- gays should be working with the downtrodden and indigent, not trying to eliminate such from view for fear that they'll steal the modernist lamp-set in the trunk of the volvo.

that's a pretty awful reason to be against gay marriage dude, i gotta say

awful anecdote at least

are you blind, j0rdan?

it is not the right to marry that i am opposed to, really. it is the results of what will happen when these rights are finally given.

and how is it an awful anecdote? you support ignorance?

I am a homosexual against gay marriage

yeah marriage really ruined straight people too. it caused capitalism, i hear!

nah i'm saying that projecting the actions of some ppl in a 3 block piece of san francisco out onto the rest of the gay population is idiotic

Most gays are already part of the capitalist dream, table -- or want to be. Since gays are as boring, awful, and predictable as our het brethren, there's no reason to project Genet-esque fantasies of subversion on them.

it seems, alfred, that we know different types of gays.

j0rdan, the history of gays 'claiming' a neighborhood and then gentrifying it is so long it would make your head spin.

What's it to you if you don't approve the "results" of another couple marrying? Jordan OTM: you're creating a slippery slope similar in intention to Maggie Gallagher and Ramesh Ponnoru's.

it seems, alfred, that we know different types of gays

I'm very pleased you know a group of Sidney Poitier-esque Perfect Gays.

take, for example, when i went to a screening of 'Milk' at the Castro Theater. in line with many men (and some women), many of whom were married or had been planning to get married, i was confronted by a cohort of gays wearing matching shirts passing out fliers that warned people of 'dangerous elements' (read: homeless, mostly African-American or hispanic men) in the neighborhood that would 'steal your valuables and holiday gifts' from your car or your person. the racist and classist overtones inherent in this act are disgusting imho-- gays should be working with the downtrodden and indigent, not trying to eliminate such from view for fear that they'll steal the modernist lamp-set in the trunk of the volvo.

― the table is the table, Thursday, April 9, 2009 9:38 PM (7 minutes ago)

dude, not all gay people are like this just like, as you obviously know, not all black people steal televisions for a living

xpost what jordan said

table, I guess what you're trying to say is that gay rights people complain a lot about marital rights, but those rights are trivial compared to the injustice that is right in front of their faces -- e.g. starvation, classism, etc. Is that correct?

in a way, yes.

Look, I sympathize with your impulses. I've read my Wilde and Genet. Tension will always exist b/w us and the straight world -- tensions that a repeal of DOMA will never efface. Hooray! But the slippery slope of your subversion lead to "transgressive" acts like fucking indiscriminately enough to get you dead of AIDS, and that's not a fate to which I aspire, bub.

So does it bother you that instead of feeding from the Chelsea/Castro cesspool, it'll be from the straight cesspool? Either way people are going to buy things they "need"

x-postss

it bothers me gay or straight.

It's all good: without them, I don't know, Flaubert wouldn't have written Sentimental Education.

i mean, i just feel like there is such an intense myopia going on here. the late 80s and early 90s and hell, even the late 90s, were horrific for a great majority of gays living in the US. yes, the supreme court finally gave us the right to fuck each other in the ass in the privacy of our own abodes. yes, there are states where we can get married and where our civil rights of partnership are recognized. yes, we have become a gigantic money-making contingent fueling the culture machine (for better or for worse, whatver).

STILL: the most at-risk group for teen suicide is homosexuals.

STILL: most of us gay men can't TRY to give blood because hey, we all have AIDS in the eyes of the FDA and AMA.

STILL: there are still licensed psychologists and psychiatrists who run 'reparative' practices in 'curing' homosexuality.

STILL: there is insane future-talk among conservative groups of using prospective gene-selection technology to essentially erase gay births from the face of the 1st world.

i think my point is that marriage and civil rights are a major issue, but they are not the end of it, and that i worry about some of the attitudes i've heard expressed in SF about everything finally being 'equal.' that's as stupid as saying that because we have a biracial president, racism is gonna magically end.

xp: And you don't think a world in which more people regard homosexuality as "normal" (so to say) will help to remedy any of those at least in part?

sure, but i object to the idea that marriage is the major normalizing force!

Not the, but certainly a, whether you personally like it or not.

it surely will act like it, yes, but it just saddens me.

table, I guess what you're trying to say is that gay rights people complain a lot about marital rights, but those rights are trivial compared to the injustice that is right in front of their faces -- e.g. starvation, classism, etc. Is that correct?

― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Thursday, April 9, 2009 8:49 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

i can sympathize with this, but it veers into some uncomfortable territory, as far as i'm concerned. that is, it sounds perilously close to the "you shouldn't feel bad about your own life's disappointments because, you know, there are people starving in sudan" argument. which, of course, has many elements of truth, but is ultimately kind of bullshit

xp to gbx:

well, yeah. i think that my point (at least towards the bottom of this thread) is that there's still majorly awful shit going down against gays both in the US and especially elsewhere, and that a normalizing force such as marriage is not going to just swoop all those problems away. additionally, the oppression and subjugation that gays have faced since...well, since the Protestant Reformation, is also not some sort of societal antique that could never come back.

no i can appreciate that. btw i'm not sure how to dovetail this with those dancehall threads, but man i can't help but think they're......relevant?

i need to eat right now and go to the studio to finish a paper, but i just wanted to say that this thread has helped me rethink and change my opinions on some things, and that it has done so without getting overly insulting. so thanks for engaging.

the history of gays people with money 'claiming' a neighborhood and then gentrifying it is so long it would make your head spin

Table has a point though in that it often starts with homosexes and sundry bohemians--who make it a desirable place to live--before the rich people roll in.

cf John Leland etc

Have you thought about the fact that the US is not the only country where gay marriage is an issue, there are several countries ie Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, South Africa and Sweden. The countries of those I've visited Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands, are really open countries where I did not notice the gated communities of Gays with Lexus'.

Also Table, just as I would not like to have rights not permitted to me for the religio-conservative mindset of others, I wouldn't like to be disenfranchised for you to live out you some Dennis Cooper fantasy of subversive fagdom.

i wonder if i should actually read this thread ever

xpgay marriage is legal in Sweden, it's just not clear yet whether or not it will be in church.

too zombified to read it :/

haha, not that I'm the marryin' kind!

take, for example, when i went to a screening of 'Milk' at the Castro Theater. in line with many men (and some women), many of whom were married or had been planning to get married, i was confronted by a cohort of gays wearing matching shirts passing out fliers that warned people of 'dangerous elements' (read: homeless, mostly African-American or hispanic men) in the neighborhood that would 'steal your valuables and holiday gifts' from your car or your person. the racist and classist overtones inherent in this act are disgusting imho-- gays should be working with the downtrodden and indigent, not trying to eliminate such from view for fear that they'll steal the modernist lamp-set in the trunk of the volvo.

This has been dealt with sufficiently, right? No need for me to bring up arguments that have already been run? (I skim-read the thread after this.)

pretty much iirc

gays should be working with the downtrodden and indigent, not trying to eliminate such from view for fear that they'll steal the modernist lamp-set in the trunk of the volvo.

http://cockingasnook.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/medium_umbridge.jpg

As far as the idea that gays, as a group, are any more well-to-do than society as a whole, I already spelled it out in the gay thread:

I would assume this is due to the fact that it's much easier, due to cultural factors and a greater economic safety net, for economically advantaged queers to be openly so than for their economically disadvantaged counterparts. Thusly, in a set of openly queer people, the economically advantaged are going to be overrepresented.

fwiw, guys, you should attend to table's last comment iirc

group hug

the conflict, in some ways, is that i think these rights are obvious and self-evident, and shouldn't even have to be bestowed by the state, as if they were some sort of gift.

i've heard far right/libertarian dudes say they were in favor of gay marriage because of this reason...or more specifically they were against the government controlling marriage and charging money for marriage licenses etc, therefore anyone could and should be able to get married.