OK, is this the worst piece of music writing ever?

oh right

. He couldn’t play guitar, couldn’t play piano. He was a fair sax player,

All three of these statements are wrong, he was a shit sax player for a start.

Oh it was already attributed.

I think Bowie would be the first to tell you that he needed his collaborators to execute his vision. That's one of the coolest, most modern things about him. Also, as much as he benefitted from the help of others, he was generous with his own talent and celebrity.

lol wtf y'all

Hey this isn't the thread for moaning about other people's opinions

That is a good post and MFB is bad at reading

also it's not published music writing!

sic otm

I read that OP tribute on FB and thought it was great.
That said, I always thought Bowie could play guitar.

I thought the OP post on Facebook was wonderful, and it summed-up an awful lot about Bowie. He's not a musician, not the way Hendrix or someone else like that is. But that's not the point.

He's not a musician, not the way Hendrix or someone else like that is.

Not too many musicians in the world then.

That's an extreme example, obviously. But he doesn't strike me as being a musician the way McCartney is, or Kate Bush, for instance. And I'm talking from a place of complete ignorance because I don't play a note on anything, but his music is often really awkward; his melodies don't seem to flow like (some) other people's do. You see The Beatles being compared to Schubert or whoever for harmonic reasons, but I've never seen anyone talk about Bowie quite like that. It's not that him being a 'non-musician' is a bad thing, or a pejorative, or a criticism, it's yet another part of what made him who he was, and brilliant.

Like Lennon or Dylan maybe? I know what you mean and I know what OP meant but, as I said, he actually could play guitar and piano, and better than he could play sax!

Yeah, Lennon and Dylan I guess, but also Lou Reed, or Iggy Pop, or Mark Hollis, or PJ Harvey; it's a punk thing, isn't it? Anyone can be a pop star, you don't need to be a musician.

And I assumed OP was exaggerating for effect, because, you know, it's emotive prose about a relationship with a hero, not an essay for citation in a journal.

idk i really like bowie's sax playing on black tie white noise

I took him to mean that Bowie's no virtuoso, but idk we knew that already? Plus, NLMD excepted the records on which he plays the most instruments and jams with the band are often his best records.

Also: I love his lead guitar on DD and The Idiot.

his music is often really awkward; his melodies don't seem to flow like (some) other people's do.

Yep. This is a point that the Bowie blog makes often: his incongruous wtf chord progressions.

as much as this makes me the person pissing on everyone's piss parade I doubt obituaries, unless they're obviously ill-intentioned ("bowie sucked and you suck YEAH I SAID IT COME AT ME BRO") are the best target for this sort of thing

Personal facebook posts are definitely not.

his music is often really awkward; his melodies don't seem to flow like (some) other people's do.

Yep. This is a point that the Bowie blog makes often: his incongruous wtf chord progressions.

i thought owen's post got at something really essential in bowie's music

Scuse me a sec I just need to go click "like" on something

hmm
http://consequenceofsound.net/2016/01/david-bowie-lives-the-cunning-exit/

i thought owen's post got at something really essential in bowie's music

ditto. i wasn't phased at all in reading it by the fact that i could summon up caveats and counter-examples (inevitable in most any Bowie music-related assertion, after all).

Bowie was the fly in the ointment. All his greatest musical achievements belong to his collaborators, Mick Ronson, Tony Visconti, Mike Garson, Brian Eno, Nile Rodgers, Erdal Kizilcay, Gail Ann Dorsey, Reeves Gabrels, Zach Alford. Bowie was the charisma, the icon, the ego that took their contributions and destroyed them. He turned a lack of musical ability into an asset, he made “musical talent” a liability, he made a stab in the dark beautiful. He was not a creator, he was a destroyer. And he was the best destroyer that ever lived.

Eno is an odd one as he is known for what OP is describing - also known as a non-musician. Its like OP is making an argument for Eno rather than Bowie as a specific kind of pop artist.

Eno was really the guy that couldn't play anything, was a lot more conceptual in his thinking etc., borrowed from a possibly wider range of sources.

Um, was 0w3n's post public on facebook or private? Because that might need a moderator redaction if private.

And tbh a ban also.

arguing that Bowie couldn't play guitar or piano is ridiculous, dude thoroughly knew his away around chord structures on each

that being said I don't think Owen is entirely wrong in general about Bowie's virtues

the whole "extremely talented musical artist was no virtuoso" angle in general is tiresome and not very interesting imo, as a lead-in to larger points sure i guess it can work and pallett's piece is fine but usually that angle makes me think of fucking stephen stills saying dylan is "no musician" after he played all the blood on the tracks songs in front of him

lol yes

Page Hamilton on Bowie

What is Bowie like?

Great. He was probably the most intelligent person, along with Elliot Goldenthal, that I’ve ever been around. You just knew and felt that you were in the presence of greatness. Like, ‘OK, he’s not like me.’

Really?

He’s smart, he’s just… Well, first of all, he opens his mouth and that voice is going into your ears, and you’re like, ‘OK, that is not normal.’ That’s an incredible instrument. And I know the records, I know the songs, I know the lines, lyrics… I remember saying to him, ‘Quicksand, OK, what were you thinking? The descending progression with the diminished chords, and then this incredible melody over the top of it -- what were you thinking?!’ He said, ‘Oh, I just thought I was so clever.’

Ha!

It’s like, ‘Fuck off,’ you know? Are you fucking kidding me? How’d you come up with a thing like that?! I mean, that’s some heavy jazz harmony going on in there. He was amazing.

Bowie was the fly in the ointment.

so David Bowie is John McClane?

OP is a shit stain btw. lol him speaking about musical talent.

must be all that John Cage he listens to constantly

TIL "Heroes" is a bad song, because it is on the radio. thanks!

he made a stab in the dark beautiful

OP stfu

He had no talent for writing couplets

It's a God-awful small affair
To the girl with the mousy hair

I don't know if public linkedin posts count as "published" but guh

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/chief-disruption-officer-david-bowie-1947-2016-digital-fluency-coach?articleId=6092309950539796480#comments-6092309950539796480&trk=prof-post

"David Bowie as Ziggy Stardust. He painted a lightning bolt on his face, sported a mullet hairstyle dyed crimson red, and introduced us to a bisexual rock star alien who acted as a messenger for extra-terrestrial beings. Wearing a multi-coloured Lycra jumpsuit, Bowie’s androgynous alter ego redefined an entire era of rock’n’roll. In this age of constant, unending digital disruption, we have to work like we're going to transform entire industries, because if we don't they will transform without us and leave us behind. I'm not saying you need to paint a lightning bolt on your face and wear Lycra to work, but if you did, imagine the creative output you'd offer the world by the end of the day!"

<3 A+

yo adam calm down

Ya my point, for the people-who-read-too-fast, is that Bowie as a pop star rendered traditional notions of "musical talent" unnecessary and antiquated, and even a liability. He would've agreed. He said in his Proust Questionnaire from 1998: "Q: What do you deplore most in others? A: Talent." When he met Nina Simone, Nina said "He looked just like Charlie Chaplin, a clown suit, a big black hat,” said Simone. “He told me that he was not a gifted singer and he knew it. He said, ‘What’s wrong with you is you were gifted—you have to play. Your genius overshadows the money, and you don’t know what to do to get your money, whereas I wasn’t a genius, but I planned, I wanted to be a rock-and-roll singer and I just got the right formula.’” I wrote that Facebook post after years of him being my favourite musician, and being asked "how does he influence your music?" so many times, and having to basically bullshit for years until eventually I had to say, "not at all". He influenced Madonna, Kanye, any musician whose creative method is ecumenical rather than ascetic. The rest of us just have our scales and technical manuals.

Facebook post was public, thank you for discussing here etc. etc.

"he's not a creator he's a destroyer" might sound like it is deep, but does it mean anything? he destroyed his collaborators? what does that mean? "his ego destroyed them"? huh? last i checked Brian Eno was still around and his contributions to the Berlin albums are well respected. nobody looks at them like "Bowie claimed all the credit for himself, too bad Eno's influence was buried under Bowie's massive ego".

I meant "destroyer" in the more philosophical sense, as in one who brings transition, creates transgressive work, upsets the establishment, ch-changes, and so on

Thanks for clarifying. Think it's still a dick move to have posted it here but not actionable.

xxp

oh is that by you? sorry for going off then.

i had a bad experience with some Bowie trolls earlier today.

also once it ends up in this thread i feel its fair game. my bad there.

no harm no foul, shit-stain is my middle name