true or false baseball challop: not a single one of the modern day closers belongs in the Hall of Fame

I don't know what the compelling case would be for why an even distribution of numbers among the two stats above is preferable.

There isn't one, I guess. Like others have said (including the writer), it's a junk stat. But at the same time, adding the numbers (i.e. giving equal weight to both columns) looked more incorrect to me than multiplication. At least when you multiply you give serious weight to longevity.

Neither column really addresses the supposed job of closer. It is better to pitch more innings and pitch well, or to pitch fewer innings and be dominant? Should we look at WAR or give more weight to situational stats? This goes for HOF voting and for picking a real life relief corps. I don't think anybody really knows.

One thing is for sure: saves are a junk stat too.

Jeff: I don’t understand the love for Hoffman and not for Edgar Martinez. How can you bash a guy for not playing defense but applaud a guy for only pitching one inning?

Klaw: Because otherwise rational writers and fans remain obsessed with the save statistic.

Long piece by Daniel Marks on left-handed relievers, with a ranking of the 20 best:

http://www.billjamesonline.com/portsiders_in_the_pen/

Top three: Wagner, Chapman, McGraw.

rip rod scurry

No recollection of this, but pretty great:

In 2013 the Twins gave Mariano Rivera a rocking chair made entirely of bats he has broken 😂 pic.twitter.com/EFjI0N5lcv

— The Game Day MLB (@TheGameDayMLB) January 7, 2023

lol I do remember that

to answer the question I say false, while I agree that even the best closers probably didn't notch that many actual wins over the course of their careers I also think lockdown closers are great for the emotional state of the fans and having this weird specialized role is probably nice for a sport with as little personality as baseball. also managers seem to be realizing more and more these days that you can use these guys for multiple innings or to get your way out of jams which I think does increase their value. mostly I just like having niche dudes in the HoF. same reason I think the very best punters should be in the football one.

It's weird, because two things are happening simultaneously: 1) bullpens become more crucial, in how a staff is assembled and how many innings they eat up; 2) the idea that closers shouldn't be in the HOF unless they meet the (impossibly high) Rivera bar is gradually taking hold. Those two things aren't exactly incompatible--the first has to do with the whole bullpen, and Wagner's doing well right now; close to the Rivera bar seems to be okay--but they seem to diverge.

The dominant closers of these era seem also maybe more short-lived and prone to meltdowns or completely lost seasons, and imo those lost seasons are ones which linger in the mind for closers more than starters.

Also should be noted that frequently the sole qualifying factor differentiating closers from other relief pitchers when it comes to HOF discussion is the save stat, closers get more usage sometimes but still…

I'm sure Rivera's post-season dominance figured into much of his unanimous support, and that's partly--the getting-there--out of a player's control.

I’ve said it before but for me as a Cubs fan I don’t remember aroldis chapman’s dominant half season w chicago but the times he needed to be bailed out in the postseason (including game 7 of the WS.)

yeah they're like field goal kickers, where they make 30 in a row and you don't even notice, meanwhile the one they missed in a 4th quarter tie game lingers in your mind forever. I guess as Omar alludes to the real problem is being a closer nowadays generally means throwing 98+ MPH and just by the nature of the human body it's kind of impossible to do that long enough to put together a HOF career

idk but I think Hoffman, while basically half as good as Rivera, never had a dramatic meltdown or bad season. Wagner I think had one mediocre injury-crippled year. Kimbrel and Chapman, obv dominant guys, have had meltdowns and lost years. Hader now too.

Wagner has a very dicey post-season record to contend with. This came up before on another thread somewhere. It's not quite as bad as it looks (with an ERA over 10.00, it couldn't possibly be)--it's like 9 good outings and 5 poor-awful games--and it doesn't seem to be hurting him in the voting right now.

I think 300 saves was viewed as a level of excellence during the 80's and 90's, when closers won multiple CY's and MVP awards. Then 300 saves became too routine and everyone knew that Todd Jones and Roberto Hernandez weren't HOFers, so the bar was raised to the Hoffman/Rivera level. Now, that bar is coming down again because the careers of elite relievers (not just closers) are getting shorter. That favors someone like Wagner, whose career is looking better in comparison with today's best closers.

saves are meaningless but the most dominant relief pitchers should be in the HOF, sure. being lights-out over hundreds of appearances is notable even if it's not as much WAR as starters can rack up

I think it’s insane the bWAR that Rivera put up, considering everything. He was just so good.

I think the closer thing is weird for the HOF, it really is strictly almost a reputation thing built on not having large type bad moments. Wagner really was extremely dominant (in the regular season.) I think he was lucky that no one is much interested in litigating his postseason, or the games weren’t big-stage, or they view the sample size as too inconsequential to matter.

my conception of the hall remains old-fashioned and I don’t think any closers (except rivera) belong, but if you think of the hall as a museum and take frogbs’s point that their role has a special place in fans’ experience of the game, I don’t see why you wouldn’t just open the floodgates. could do the same someday with openers, mop-up relievers, third base coaches, etc, all of these people provide value to the team, though imo like closers have assumed their role because the people who run the teams have decided they aren’t capable of more

I mean the value any future or recent HOF closer gives a team (except Rivera, which should be the two words used in every post!) is far less than someone like idk Ian Kinsler gave his teams. Or John Lackey. Or Ray Durham. Closers just have the incredible stagecraft and Big Moment thing.

James got a question today about how qualified he thinks Wagner and Rodriguez are for the HOF:

Billy Wagner had a great career, and I'd consider that. But we're electing WAY too many relievers to the Hall of Fame, for this reason. The way that the process works (and has always worked) is that if a player meets or exceeds the standards of others at the position who have been selected, then that player is essentially considered eligible. But that process went awry in regard to relievers because the standards were evolving very rapidly, so that 10 years after Rollie Fingers was selected...and I still don't think that Fingers was deserving of Hall of Fame recognition...but ten years after he was selected, there were a large number of relievers who had run past some or many of the standards that he had established. In essence, the process of evaluation by standards does not work in a place where the standards are changing rapidly.

could do the same someday with openers, mop-up relievers, third base coaches, etc, all of these people provide value to the team, though imo like closers have assumed their role because the people who run the teams have decided they aren’t capable of more

isn't it more because their throwing style only allows them to throw 20-25 pitches before their efficiency goes down and their risk of injury goes up? the guys who can't hack it as starters usually become middle relievers, not closers

stamima is one thing. but a lot of guys in relief are there because they didn't have enough pitches in their repertoire. one or two kinds of pitches is enough for a closer or middle relief, but it usually doesn't cut it as a starting pitcher because big league hitters are able to adapt and are ready for it by the second time through the batting order

there are only 5 relievers in the top 50 in salary among all pitchers. teams know what value they bring and by and large pay accordingly

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/salary/pitching/

Some of the deals given relievers in years past had paid them like they were game changers rather than merely guys whose job it was to preserve a lead of three runs or less and really not to fuck it up for everyone else. Mowing down 3 or 4 batters every 3 games is not a 100 million contract job.

God, some of the names in the first third of that list: Strasburg, Sale, Bumgarner, Ryu. I totally get why two or three of them landed huge contracts at the time, but pitchers sure are risky. (I.e., the two #1s?)

i mean...Stroman. i guess i knew the Cubs gave him that much but when you see him listed there it reminds me of the time the Cubs turned their backs on Greg Maddux and chose Jose Guzman.

pitchers will break your heart. alex reyes broke my heart. </3

did we ever have a thread called Stroman or Astroman?

I watched that walk-off by the Mariners last night (they looked like they were going to do a Jays thing, not score after loading the bases with none out). God, Aroldis Chapman looked terrible. He didn't give up the walk-off, but he's the one who loaded the bases before getting pulled. Along with all other considerable baggage he carries, I wonder how long teams will keep bringing him aboard.

Couldn’t be happier for his failure ❤️

You know who’s been an elite reliever this year? Chris Martin! Mostly a setup/8th guy but has closed when Kenley was on the IL.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martich02.shtml

Kenley hasn’t been lights out or anything - but still decent enough that he could get his 30th save before seasons end. All time, he’s two saves away from Wagner, 4 from Franco and 17 from K-rod.

Kenley isn’t going to play again this season

I thought he was off the dl

If i was a rostered pitcher w an established baseline i wouldnt want to pitch once i was eliminated from PO contention

Cora said he didn’t use Kenley because he hasn’t pitched in 17 days and didn’t want to risk his health

— Rob Bradford (@bradfo) September 30, 2023

Huh

Yeah he had covid and took a while to come back. He pitches terribly on long rest (at least this season?)

God, Aroldis Chapman looked terrible. He didn't give up the walk-off, but he's the one who loaded the bases before getting pulled. Along with all other considerable baggage he carries, I wonder how long teams will keep bringing him aboard.

I’ve said it before but for me as a Cubs fan I don’t remember aroldis chapman’s dominant half season w chicago but the times he needed to be bailed out in the postseason (including game 7 of the WS.)

― omar little, Sunday, January 8, 2023 9:47 AM (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Jansen had COVID and has a history of heart problems, I wouldn't be in any rush to bring him back either.