"I'm a sovereign human being, I stand under common law only" - Thread of Freemen

i.e. you, based on how much you appear to know about what's going on

Generally speaking federal lands are uninhabited. Some of it is leased on long term leases where there are inhabited dwellings, but this amounts to a tiny fraction of the whole.

lots of links and history of this movement for your reading pleasure

http://www.hcn.org/articles/sagebrush-rebellion/

there are a lot of legitimate reasons to set (controllable) fires in areas that you are using, whether as a break against wildfires or to clear dead areas for renewal, but again, it goes back to whether you have the legal right to that land and the authority to do whatever you want on it

there's an undeniable secessionist bent to the take-the-land-backers imo but it's sort of weird because they left behind the free labor supply.

worth noting that the BLM gets a lot of hate from the environmental left too, is accused of selling out especially to energy interests.

WACO's whiteness didn't protect them in 94.

― Mordy, Monday, January 4, 2016 2:08 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The branch davidians were a multiracial group. 45 of the ~130 living in the waco compound were black.

interesting. i didn't know that. 2 things you've taught me today :)

oops, sorry, sleeve taught me the other thing. got confused.

worth noting that the BLM gets a lot of hate from the environmental left too, is accused of selling out especially to energy interests.

this is very true, esp. in Oregon

tbf I am acting like there are legitimate, poorly-articulated complaints these people might have, but I don't think they'd agree with me on anything and their actual stances are less within the legal framework and more nebulous *waves constitution at passerby*

the bureau of land management, along with many of the other organizations that coordinate and regulate land use both public and private, are pretty understaffed and subject to the whims of politicized interests

the argument "well, BLM lets corporate fat cats use land poorly for mining and energy so they should not restrict our use of the land" is the "just let us all behave badly" end of things

what's the deal w/ the grazing? do these ppl not have sufficient land to graze their livestock or is it really a principle of the thing type of thing, we go where we want?

grazing disputes are so ancient. they're the reason lot + abraham split up when lot went down to sodom.

xp

rn you can't deny that by seizing this facility over a holiday weekend this handful of rabble-rousers has succeeded in capturing a lot of attention for their self-important posturing, so they have to be pleased with themselves. plus, if they don't make a big mess of the facility or pull their weapons on the wrong people, they might quietly slip out of town in a few days and not even face arrest or trial, let alone have to face a hail of bullets from FBI agents.

I get where they're coming from, but they're still a bunch of dumbasses.

http://i.imgur.com/TG94nh4.png

http://i.imgur.com/TG94nh4.png

Is Abbott still on this board? I think she'd be the best explicator of some of the Mormon background here

this one isn't a grazing dispute, mordy. but the bundy brouhaha in Nevada was about the bundys not paying the fees required by their contract with the government, even though they had derived the financial benefits of grazing their allotment. the blm tried to impound their cattle as a form of lien, met armed resistance from about 300 so-called militia, and backed down to avoid what looked like certain bloodshed on both sides. now the bundys are in the armed insurrection business.

do these ppl not have sufficient land to graze their livestock

they traditionally have just let their cattle graze across the prairie, including federal land, and I doubt they have much fenced area. true free range.

but yeah, the case they're supposedly protesting now is nominally not about this, but it comes down to whether they think they own the government anything at all

one vital aspect overlooked by the bundys is that the government grants exclusive grazing rights to ranchers within their federal allotments, so there is an enforceable mechanism that prevents a rancher with more guns and cattle from running off your cattle and putting his on the land you were grazing. or maybe they don't overlook this and believe they can always be the rancher with the most guns and they'll be doing all the bullying.

The branch davidians were a multiracial group. 45 of the ~130 living in the waco compound were black.

I actually thought there were more black victims than that, there were a lot of British citizens there and, as far as I know, they were all black.

you guys: https://youtu.be/zcOIdVMa4-0

i don't understand ppl whose ideology takes precedence over being around to take care of their children

A bit too weepy for a genuine martyrdom video.

that red-tinged map looks a little misleading to me: includes all indian reservations and national parks!

I was just going to say that: the red areas in MI at least are deffo mostly natl parks in remote, isolated areas.

fwiw the BLM administers around 14 million acres of rangeland in OR and WA comnbined.

those cows are wandering a looong way to find something to eat in some of those areas

The vast majority of those federal lands in western states are not suited to any economic uses other than grazing, logging, mining, or recreation. Those activities are widely allowed on those lands, but also regulated. With the rise in environmental concerns, those regulations have become more complex, which cheeses off people like the Bundys.

The fees paid by loggers, ranchers and miners do not cover the costs incurred by the federal regulatory agencies that oversee the lands - mostly the Forest Service, which tellingly is part of the Dept. of Agriculture, and the Bureau of Land Management, most of whose lands are grasslands. Most notably, the Mining Act of 1872 set the price of a mining claim at $2.50 to $5 an acre, and that price has never been revised to this day.

Point to that map is how much land in the west is not available for private development.

I've got no problem with that, but it is very disproportionate compared to the rest of the nation, even with the lower population.

so there ain't much to do in eastern and southeastern Oregon, right?

Malheur County, just next door to Harney County, is only an hour behind Pensacola.

so there ain't much to do in eastern and southeastern Oregon, right?

parts of eastern Oregon have stuff going on. The Pendleton rodeo is an annual big deal in the state. But get too far south of the Columbia and shit is almost uninhabited. SE Oregon, man, I've never even really thought about it much less visited.

Point to that map is how much land in the west is not available for private development.

I've got no problem with that, but it is very disproportionate compared to the rest of the nation, even with the lower population.

― pplains, Monday, January 4, 2016 2:53 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

huh? it's fairly proportionate with the rest of the nation especially when you consider the population. the main reason there is so little private development is because there is literally no one there. xp

http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/79000/79800/dnb_united_states_lrg.jpg

cool cool

https://twitter.com/OmanReagan/status/681653286840184833

SE Oregon, man, I've never even really thought about it much less visited.

I drove SR 95 from Winnemucca to Boise once and it was the most desolate terrain I have ever driven through

xp might be a which came first, the chicken or the egg, kinda thing. How can you live somewhere on land that you can't own or have any private development.

http://i.imgur.com/MPFwBLZ.jpg

And again, fuck these guys, and on the whole, I'm glad 80 percent of Oregon is under wraps. But look at the thinly populated areas of the south or Texas (which is a whole other thing altogether), and you can see where it looks like the Fed is taking up more than its fair share.

xp what are those lights in eastern montana?

oil rigs, fracking in ND.

and ufo's.

one of the dudes hanging out in Oregon refused to give any name other than "Captain Moroni"

http://itcpowersolutions.com/images/OilFieldsFromSpace.jpg

worth noting that the oil fields are lit up like car sales lots and are operating nearly 24/7 in an area without people complaining about light pollution. it's probably brighter there at 3AM than it is most places at noon.

See? Eastern Ore doesn't know what it's missing.

http://i.imgur.com/YXZrJp5.jpg

Harney County, where this is taking place, has a population of about 7500. It is also the largest county in the USA, at 10,226 sq mi. For comparison Vermont has 9,616 sq mi.

good breakdown of the grazing economics here:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/?ex_cid=538fb

xp
San Bernardino county is the largest in the US (20,000 sq mi), but with a population of 2 mil.

Harney may be the least dense.

xp might be a which came first, the chicken or the egg, kinda thing. How can you live somewhere on land that you can't own or have any private development.

pretty sure the government would sell this land if anyone were actually interested in using it, barring environmental concerns or something.. it seems more 'logical' than wondering why they're "holding on to it" or w/e.

the ritzheimer goodbye video is depressing and seems to confirm my suspicion that these guys are desperate to add some sort of meaning to their lives, but the best they could come up with is a combination of action hero tropes and bible/constitution fanfic.

how about these people spend time, I dunno, at work, earning a living, rather than cosplaying as American heroes.