Thread of What Is Fascism And Is Donald Trump A Fascist

v otm I think

i think that this idea that trump isn't principled enough to be a fascist is maybe buying into a bit of a myth about fascism, that it was actually principled and not a presentation of the right ideology at the right time for what was a more important goal beyond any principle, the rise to power of a hierarchical faction.

That's more or less where I was wondering. Do many political scholars actually regard fascism as a coherent ideology in the way that e.g. classical liberalism, democratic socialism, or Marxist-Leninism are coherent ideologies? Genuinely curious. Point 4 of that Vox article is basically an open admission that it had no real ideological position at all when it comes to the economy, which is sort of a huge aspect of how any society is governed. Point 1 mostly tells us what fascism is not. I followed the article to read Mussolini's The Doctrine of Fascism (written a decade after the March on Rome), which does give enough info to suggest that the term may well not be apt for Trump but also seems to basically acknowledge that the 'ideology' (or at least 'theory') fascism was largely made up on the go:

The years preceding the march on Rome cover a period during which the need of action forbade delay and careful doctrinal elaborations. Fighting was going on in the towns and villages. There were discussions but... there was some­thing more sacred and more important... death... Fascists knew how to die. A doctrine - fully elaborated, divided up into chapters and paragraphs with annotations, may have been lacking, but it was replaced by something far more decisive, - by a faith. All the same, if with the help of books, articles, resolutions passed at congresses, major and minor speeches, anyone should care to revive the memory of those days, he will find, provided he knows how to seek and select, that the doctrinal foundations were laid while the battle was still raging. Indeed, it was during those years that Fascist thought armed, refined itself, and proceeded ahead with its organization.

i really don't think nazi-style racial ideology is necessary to fascism. obsessive purgation of internal "weakness" incarnated by a scapegoat class is necessary, but as the class is always at least partly disguised (jews, communists, etc) it can really be anything at all, and is usually multiple things. (the symmetry of fascism w/ totalitarian communism is probably overstated, but the stalinist hunt for "wreckers" feels like a refinement on fascist othering: an invisible class that is literally sabotaging the state from within and which can be revealed to include literally anyone-- including of course jews, "left deviationists", etc.)

nazi racial theory is unique and the nazi state and hitler's head are clearly unimaginable without the specific spectre of the jew, but i don't think that the anti-semitism of italian fascism (before it became a nazi client ideology) is so completely inseparable from its anti-intellectualism, generalized racist xenophobia, macho paranoia, potency theory etc (all things of course tied up with anti-semitism in europe of that time and others) that the f-word should be off-limits when those exact things show up in another populist demagogue during a time of widening inequity and widespread popular disillusionment in the democracy he claims he will cure; and tho i can only guess, disorientatedly, w the help of various aids, as to the causes of those feelings at stokable levels in mass numbers of people, i don't think that mass mystical race-hate is the sole or even biggest one. even in germany-- it is clearly hitler-personally's prime motive, but i don't know if it is his prime source of power. (in general i think the psychology of leaders is less important than the psychology of peoples. so i.e.j0an's remark above--

a fascist, however wrongheadedly, believes he is doing good for his nation. Trump's pathology is messier.

--is likely true, but the people at the rallies believe trump is doing good for his nation and that they are doing good by supporting him. this matters more than trump's soul does imo. it particularly matters because trump will likely eventually go back to scamming people in more apolitical ways, but the people at the rallies will still be here.)

that the totalitarian states of midcentury europe are unique (like all states at all times) and should be remembered as such is obviously true; also obviously true is that people call anyone who tells them what to do a fascist. also true is that donald trump does not at this time command an organized paramilitary force which polices public ideology by applying violence to perceived sources of weakness or sedition and with which he might seize the state, so no, his movement is not today a fascist movement, but i think lots of people in his audiences have absolutely no personal compunction against applying violence to sources of weakness or sedition (like for example black people[*]) and are ready to do it, and i don't think we should wait until they start before we begin to remind people that the combination of populist xenophobia and contempt for the sclerosis of democracy amongst a population that fetishizes violence and domination and in an exciting new wrinkle happens to be awash in high-powered ego-inflating weaponry (and by the way compare mussolini's insight above--that the real fascist core has something to do with a sanctified relationship to death--not just to the suicide bomber, or to captain blicero, but to the friend i used to have whose opinion on gun control was "i can take the first two through the door"--but not, he knew, the rest) looks really dangerous in ways it would be irresponsible, not responsible, to downplay. i agree that we should not go around saying "you're just like HITLER!" every time someone tries to push people around but there is such a thing as a pattern and i think the only people who really benefit from locking a word as vague-from-birth as fascism in a museum are fascists.

[*] incidentally, despite all of our vaunted Advances, full-on phrenology-style objectivity-cloaked pseudoscientific race theory is just beneath the surface in this country, and the fragmentation of consensus reality isn't doing anything to bury it deeper

merry christmas

lol, it's a very good post though

that the totalitarian states of midcentury europe are unique (like all states at all times) and should be remembered as such is obviously true;

feel like probably the biggest differences in the ways states in general function now are moderated by mass media, at least in the rich white west. trump is an actual expert in that field, and i'm not sure if historical fascism -- however defined -- is a fertile strategy in this context, but i guess we'll see. paramilitary force seems like a good line to draw. otherwise you can end up equating hitler and stalin and so on, lose history.

is anyone in the world affirmatively identifying as capital f fascist right now?

biggest differences in the ways states in general function now are moderated by mass media

radio was used extensively by most western regimes as a propaganda tool in the 1930s, as were newsreels. these were legitimate mass media with an extensive reach.

i always thought that the third reich was agreed to be a mass media pioneer, though not even one of the first real movements to take advantage of it. c.f. triumph of the will. xp

with trump i think part of the reason maybe that his will be a losing coalition is that he's riding a somewhat diminished media wave that is already a bit of a relic? idk it feels like it's late in the day for mass media as an omnipresent influence on cultural discourse in america.

i guess what i mean is that trump seems like a pre-internet media creation, from a land of blonde daytime teevee, and the increased visibility of minorities post-internet seems to have shifted the conversation to the point where centers of power are being forced to do some reshuffling, and trump hits a formidable roadblock.

yes but it's late in the same sclerotic day. "social" media barely defined from effects vs previous "mass" in politics proper

right, that's a huge topic and i don't really have any good information on it obviously. i'm usually the first to agree that much has stayed the same regarding media effects after the internet, but i feel like there are some important changes that do really mess up or at least complicate the schematic for a figure like trump. what those are exactly i'm at a loss to say without trying to find research on it.

While traditional media clings to him like it would anything with a bit of juice, I'm not sure it's wise to underestimate the effect of being clearly the own candidate to be running his own Twitter, able to pick out nuggets of shite from his followers and rebroadcast them as well as his usual weakness-shaming.

lol, it's a very good post though

OTM

is anyone in the world affirmatively identifying as capital f fascist right now?

yes - largely people WAY out there on the fringe though

I actually had to research whether a band I wanted to review for The Wire this year was affiliated with the Order of Nine Angles. (They weren't; the review ran.)

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/trump-robocalls-white-nationalists-iowa

I really shouldn't lol, and yet... lol

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/34573-it-was-like-a-fascist-rally-sikh-protester-ejected-from-trump-event-speaks-out

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donald-trump-inspired-tale-bullets-pig-blood-article-1.2538283

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/02/23/donald-trump-on-protester-id-like-to-punch-him-in-the-face/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumppunch-755am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

yeah, i feel like the media has revealed its incapacity to deal with this guy

imagine if he told a similar anti-semitic parable along similar lines

if i were muslim in this country i'd feel like it was germany 1932

this is everywhere

http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fascism.html

After reading Dave Neiwert's Orcinus blog for 13 years, I'm more watchful for and betting on Trump's candidacy stoking up proto-fascist movements, rather than straight fascist. I think dude can create the conditions where horseshit can foster, rather than being the standard-bearer himself

yup

Probably relevant: http://www.vox.com/2016/2/23/11099644/trump-support-authoritarianism

what happens to trump, after the election he probably doesn't win? is he fucked in the business world (or moreso than he ever was)? is his television career over? has he reached irredeemable levels of toxicity yet?

I doubt it. His toxicity has led to his name being taken off a number of major projects across the Middle East, like the golf course he is developing with DAMAC in Dubai, but afaict the underlying agreements remain in place.

He is probably not the worst human being major property developers are dealing with.

haha, yes that is very true

Most publically worst though - he may not be the only thing on the list of "We're hoping no-one finds out about this aspect of the deal", but why add something to that list?

Because they don't give a fuck? Different in the Middle East because Muslims.

He is probably not the worst human being major property developers are dealing with.

Yes, they're probably just as bad.

I can see his name being more of a disincentive in Europe than the Middle East, tbqh. The gist of DAMAC's statement was 'we don't condone his political comments but his company builds really good golf courses'. His face won't be plastered everywhere but in the grand scheme of things, people tend not to care too much about who owns the apartment blocs, golf courses and shopping malls they go to.

This is obviously tinfoil hat territory, but it's a little concerning to consider the damage that populist causes may be done by being associated with this huckster.

http://selfstyledsiren.blogspot.com/2016/02/what-i-think-about-when-they-say-donald.html

https://www.facebook.com/drdaviddukeFANpage/posts/1026085247449055

"Of what are they afraid?"

The fuck u bringing me into this

feel like this thread is just a historical record/repository at this point
http://theweek.com/speedreads/609311/time-reporter-choked-slammed-ground-donald-trump-rally

For a minute, I thought that headline said that the guy was chokeslamed to the ground, and reading the description, it sure sounds like he was.

Watching the gif, it sure looks like he was.

Kind of cross-posting with the other thread but it's interesting to see how different manifestations of what might ultimately be the same thing are being viewed as uniquely national pathologies when they appear.

A very common explanation for the rise of Putin was that Russians are just naturally more comfortable under a Tsar-like figure who'll sort things out for them in return for giving up a vibrant civil society / grass-roots democratic engagement. Berlusconi is explained away by the Italian love of flash and machismo. PiS and Orban fit with Poland and Hungary's Catholic revanchism and latent willingness to believe antisemitic and anticommunist conspiracy theories, etc, etc. There's a risk that viewing Trump primarily through a prism of threatened American masculinity / 'whiteness' is falling into the same trap. There's a grain of truth in all of it but the commonalities (primarily a general, international lack of faith in conventional Western capitalism and democracy to deliver anything other than managed decline) are more important and have more worrying implications for the rise of an international hard-right.

yes, i think this is why some of the recent work on authoritarianism is convincing, since it doesn't rely on a narrative that's exclusively american.

Chris Hedges:

Fascism is aided and advanced by the apathy of those who are tired of being conned and lied to by a bankrupt liberal establishment, whose only reason to vote for a politician or support a political party is to elect the least worst. This, for many voters, is the best Clinton can offer....

Fascism is about an inspired and seemingly strong leader who promises moral renewal, new glory and revenge. It is about the replacement of rational debate with sensual experience. This is why the lies, half-truths and fabrications by Trump have no impact on his followers. Fascists transform politics, as philosopher and cultural critic Walter Benjamin pointed out, into aesthetics. And the ultimate aesthetic for the fascist, Benjamin said, is war.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_revenge_of_the_lower_classes_and_the_rise_of_american_fascism_20160302

Rorty quote is remarkably prescient

I'm starting to rethink my engagement with pop culture at large, since the rise of Trump. The stupidness of so much of it is beginning to a look more sinister? nihilistic? than it used to. Or maybe just plane dum

hedges' book american fascism is where i first read that umberto eco piece that's been making the rounds again lately. i used to recommend the book just for the eco piece.

The stupidness of so much of it is beginning to a look more sinister? nihilistic? than it used to. Or maybe just plane dum

welcome to adulthood

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/03/06/donald_trump_vows_to_legalize_torture.html

There was a time when signing on to the Geneva Conventions was considered wise, to ensure that one's own citizen-soldiers, when captured, would not be subjected to inhuman treatment,and would not be exposed in combat to weapons such as nerve gas. Welcome to the brilliant era of the all-volunteer armed forces!

Slacktivist:
The national ID card and the Mark of the Beast

...Here, I think, the “authoritarianism” model isn’t quite as useful or explanatory as the idea of Herrenvolk. That’s a German word for something that found its nastiest and most infamous expression in 20th-century Germany. Herrenvolk means, literally, “master folk.” The idea is that of democratic government — but only by and for the ethnic majority (or, in places like Apartheid South Africa or the West Bank or parts of Mississippi, for the privileged ethnic minority).

This is helpful for trying to understand the appeal of people like Donald Trump or Alex Jones. Herrenvolk democrats are not opposed to “Big Government” in the form of welfare and assistance for themselves, but they’re fiercely opposed to any such assistance going to others — to the wrong kind of people. They want “Big Government” under their own feet, solidifying the foundations of their own lives, but they hate the idea of government offering the same support to those other kinds of people.

For the other form of “Big Government” — the kind that rests on one’s shoulders rather than under one’s feet, the kind that weighs us down rather than bearing our weight — Herrenvolk democrats take the opposite view. They insist on the Bill of Rights and full civil liberties for themselves, but not for others. They do not want government surveilling them, or hassling them for identification, but they want to see the government increasing its surveillance, harassment, stopping-and-frisking, etc., of those other people. They hate the idea of former NYC Mayor Bloomberg’s soda tax applying to them — that’s Big Brother and the nanny state. But at the same time they enthusiastically support efforts to police the grocery budgets of poor people.

Sounds familiar.