Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

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which is to say: there are both good and bad effects of an institution taking an interest in your feelings.

ryan, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 21:58 (eight years ago) link

i guess i mentioned this (maybe a few too many times?) on the "coddling..." thread, but fredrik deboer speaks to these issues in this piece http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/why-we-should-fear-university-inc.html=

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 21:59 (eight years ago) link

whole series of non-sequitirs there, an attempt to graft a general discussion of "climate" onto a host of very different issues with different particulars. what's happening at yale is not what's happening at mizzou is not what happened to a teenage girl in SC. and conflating the responses to these things--and implying that the same people criticizing e.g. the students calling for someone's firing at yale are those blaming the victim in the SC case--is not helpful.

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:10 (eight years ago) link

yeah but The New Yorker wants Friedersdorf's hits

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:12 (eight years ago) link

like NOBODY i know is actually making this argument:

Two weeks ago, we saw a school security officer in South Carolina violently subdue a teen-age girl for simple noncompliance, and we actually countenanced discussion of the student’s culpability for “being disruptive in class.”

that is plainly a red herring argument. whatever this girl did has no bearing on the awfulness and brutality of what was done to her.

there's a slipperiness in that "we actually countenanced..." line. who is "we"? what does "actually countenanced" mean? simply allowed to exist?

but conflating that red herring argument with the legitimate concerns about free speech raised by yale situation is, again, not helpful. she's tarring a disparate group of concerns with the same "this is distracting from racism" brush.

sure, some people said the girl in SC had it coming, or politer versions of the same thing. and some of those people are the same people pointing at the situations at missouri and yale and crying foul. those people by and large would be conservatives.

but there are also plenty of leftists concerned about aspects of what's gone down at e.g. yale--folks who are plenty concerned with racism, and appalled by the SC situation among many others--who don't deserve to be lumped in the former.

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:15 (eight years ago) link

sorry, that post got garbled by some clumsy copy and paste. it should have read:

like NOBODY i know is actually making this argument:

Two weeks ago, we saw a school security officer in South Carolina violently subdue a teen-age girl for simple noncompliance, and we actually countenanced discussion of the student’s culpability for “being disruptive in class.”

the argument cobb synopsizes there is plainly a red herring argument. whatever this girl did has no bearing on the awfulness and brutality of what was done to her.

but conflating that red herring argument with the legitimate concerns about free speech raised by yale situation is, again, not helpful. she's tarring a disparate group of concerns with the same "this is distracting from racism" brush.

sure, some people said the girl in SC had it coming, or politer versions of the same thing. and some of those people are the same people pointing at the situations at missouri and yale and crying foul. those people by and large would be conservatives.

but there are also plenty of leftists concerned about aspects of what's gone down at e.g. yale--folks who are plenty concerned with racism, and appalled by the SC situation among many others--who don't deserve to be lumped in the former.

there's a slipperiness in that "we actually countenanced..." line. who is "we"? what does "actually countenanced" mean? simply allowed to exist?

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:16 (eight years ago) link

i'm not sure about freddie's materialist argument; as tempting as it is to ascribe student reactions to the corporate university (or in a variation on that theme - on the uncertainty produced by the exploitive economic machine of the corporate university + the educational loan industry), this is not just something happening in the university. even ilx has numerous topics that one would be wise to avoid bc any hint of dissension or break w/ the "correct" POV is anathema to a particular expression of left-wing righteousness. this totalizing paradigm where the suppression of bad opinions is itself virtuous exists beyond the academy and if it is unique to the academy i think that's only in the sense that the academy has always been a locus for avant garde political action (particularly on the left). which is not to say that this is a "problem," in that it's unclear to me how widespread this ideology exists at all and it seems to me like the vast majority of people still believe in liberal values of conversation / freely sharing ones opinion / polite argumentation / etc. but i don't need to name names to point out that plenty of ppl no longer agree that this is an appropriate way to handle what i'll charitably refer to as "opinions that go over the line," or "opinions that reify oppression and domination," or "speech that is harmful," and that all it takes is a few ppl making a lot of noise to make things uncomfortable enough that the vast majority of ppl will just keep their mouths shut. to some this suppression of particular 'harmful speech' through non-illegal means (merely the shaming of those with whom we disagree) is a victory! but not to me. even discussing this i feel like is to court controversy. "oh look at the poor [white/male/wealthy/whatever] complaining about how they're oppressed," but really it's not an oppression issue but more of a way of shaping public discourse. if i walk to work every day past someone screaming and smearing their shit on the wall and i decide to stop walking that way bc it's unpleasant i'm not being oppressed, and truly the shit-smearer is probably experiencing far more degradation and alienation than i can even imagine. but it does ultimately result in me no longer walking that way bc of the sheer unpleasantness. i think when i first started posting to ilx i really appreciated the forum bc it gave me an opportunity to discuss things i couldn't in my real life but now i find myself in a constant state of self-censorship here not bc "woe is me" but bc i don't want to deal w/ some psycho smearing their shit at some perceived offense. it cheapens the value of ilx (to me, but maybe shit smearers are thrilled w/ the status quo) but i mean this is really just a metaphor bc ilx value is fairly superficial to begin w/, but it inevitably cheapens the value of the university too.

Mordy, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:18 (eight years ago) link

http://www.philebrity.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/smokey_04.jpg

j., Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:29 (eight years ago) link

j, what does that image mean in this context?

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:30 (eight years ago) link

OVER THE LINE

j., Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:35 (eight years ago) link

line breaks, mordy. :)

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:36 (eight years ago) link

i always feel more inclined to use "beyond the pale" as the operative idiom in place of "over the line" but bc of its racial etymological baggage i try to avoid it

Mordy, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:37 (eight years ago) link

lol no line breaks extremely long paragraphs are my new ilx style. i'm looking to have as few readers as possible while still satisfying my personal need to express.

Mordy, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:38 (eight years ago) link

lol

i would be hugely surprised if you knew what beyond the pale meant?

MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:41 (eight years ago) link

no i know bc my family is from the pale of settlement so at some time in college i [mistakenly] put two + two together and then looked up the actual etymology and educated myself a little bit about ireland

Mordy, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:42 (eight years ago) link

<3

also hugely otm obv

MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 November 2015 22:43 (eight years ago) link

j. could you expand on what you mean by left communitarianism?

no not at the mo it's just a pregnant phrase

j., Tuesday, 10 November 2015 23:37 (eight years ago) link

like NOBODY i know is actually making this argument:

Two weeks ago, we saw a school security officer in South Carolina violently subdue a teen-age girl for simple noncompliance, and we actually countenanced discussion of the student’s culpability for “being disruptive in class.”

lucky you

these people exist

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 23 November 2015 15:57 (eight years ago) link

And a lot of them work in schools

Rich Homie Quan Poor Homie Quan (m bison), Monday, 23 November 2015 16:08 (eight years ago) link

a very nuanced and level-headed article, sure to change minds!

k3vin k., Monday, 23 November 2015 18:13 (eight years ago) link

If you’re at all sensitive to the suffering of others, you’re going to start feeling pulled to empathize with Jessica which sets off a cascade of emotions that you may or may not exactly have the time, resources or ability to process on a random Tuesday evening.

So the problem is consumerism

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 18:32 (eight years ago) link

Viewers having paid good money for content don't want to suddenly have to feel cascades of emotion

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 18:35 (eight years ago) link

It makes technical sense (who hasn't experienced unwelcome emotions on hearing a bar of music or smelling a perfume?) but effectively they're arguing for an end to the Proustian rush

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 18:37 (eight years ago) link

The correlative here is that consumers would be able to avoid things which triggered empathy if it wasn't the right time for empathy, like if they had someone they needed to fire that day

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 18:39 (eight years ago) link

Wondering where that leave things like TV ads for charities?

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 18:53 (eight years ago) link

Wondering where that leave things like TV ads for charities?

Getting muted.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 23 November 2015 19:12 (eight years ago) link

Don't stop now lads yere winning!

xp Well no ... the viewer would need to have the choice not to see the advert

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 19:28 (eight years ago) link

at all, that is

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 19:33 (eight years ago) link

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/668824174769606656

wizzz! (amateurist), Monday, 23 November 2015 19:44 (eight years ago) link

i fear for the future appreciation of the american ninja series

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjE4MjQ0MDM2OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNjAwMTcyNA@@._V1_SX214_AL_.jpg

wizzz! (amateurist), Monday, 23 November 2015 19:46 (eight years ago) link

It seems only natural that this issue would be battened onto by concern trolls.

Aimless, Monday, 23 November 2015 19:48 (eight years ago) link

If I'm the concern troll in question my charity ad thing relates only to one sentence in that one article about marvel's jessica jones

cardamon, Monday, 23 November 2015 20:20 (eight years ago) link

I was referencing amateurist's twitter link

Aimless, Monday, 23 November 2015 20:31 (eight years ago) link

you had better not be referring to american ninja as a concern troll

wizzz! (amateurist), Monday, 23 November 2015 20:34 (eight years ago) link

more like concern throwing stars

Why because she True and Interesting (President Keyes), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 00:54 (eight years ago) link

Polite response to cultural appropriation is to cover your mouth while you laugh at the gwai lo

big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 02:51 (eight years ago) link

This thread was opened in July 2013 and I'm surprised to see this issue still unresolved tbh

MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 02:53 (eight years ago) link

the jessica jones article is a little ott but several posts in a row deliberately misreading one sentence in order to make fun of abuse survivors is not a good look, really

thwomp (thomp), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 03:15 (eight years ago) link

'make fun of' not exactly right. 'deny the needs of', idk.

i am thinking i have definitely seen 'the following programme contains disturbing content and viewer discretion is advised' warnings on (late-night, british) tv since before 'trigger warning' was a thing in the wider discourse, but i'm finding it hard to place what kind of thing they were on. is this a false memory implanted by social justice illusionists or

thwomp (thomp), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 03:17 (eight years ago) link

nah we even have a fuckin law about it in the states. parental advisory contains nudity violence, etc. i fail to see how trigger warnings as described here aren't just like a more voluntary, less censorious, ground-up version of that anyway without the shitty government mandate and stupid technological bits (lol v-chip)

big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 05:41 (eight years ago) link

lmao social justice illusionists

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 05:57 (eight years ago) link

not sure where to put this stuff anymore

http://chronicle.com/article/Torn-Over-Tactics-Activists/234328/

sample section:

Those methods, however, have provoked the ire of some students. Both the demonstration and the demands at Chapel Hill drew widespread criticism on social media. And a similar interruption at a forum at the University of Kansas prompted its Black Student Union to issue a statement last week clarifying that the group was not affiliated with the protesters.

Such disrespectful behavior, said Brylan Donaldson, a junior at Kansas, "represents us as minority students, even though we’re not participating." When people ask Mr. Donaldson how he feels about the recent protests, he tells them: "Don’t even put me close to that."

Mr. Robinson, of Pomona, participated in a sit-in on his campus last week that ended with the college’s president agreeing to some of the students’ demands. The protest, he said, was largely a success, drawing attention to what he considers isolated instances of racism on the campus. Still, he felt uncomfortable afterward.

Watching the president apologize for systemic racism at the college seemed "absurd," said Mr. Robinson, who lived in Shanghai for nine years — an upbringing that he realizes gives him somewhat of an outsider’s perspective on the injustices his black classmates are describing. "It felt like during the Cultural Revolution in China, where teachers were forced to confess when their views weren’t in line with the party’s."

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 15:40 (eight years ago) link

(btw i take it that robinson didn't spend his nine years in shanghai between 1966 and 1975, but point taken)

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 15:41 (eight years ago) link

that article is paywalled for most of us

big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 16:14 (eight years ago) link

you can access it through twitter or facebook or whatever

anyways here's the txt

hen confrontational protests and threatened hunger strikes prompted the dean of students at Claremont McKenna College to resign two weeks ago, not everyone was cheering.

Behind the scenes, some minority students cringed at the most strident expressions of activism that were roiling their campuses and the backlash they had unleashed. Many, however, were reluctant to speak out, either because they shared the protesters’ broad goals or because they feared being seen, as one student put it, as "race traitors."

But as the protests that started with the forced ouster of the president and chancellor of the University of Missouri on November 9 have extended to hundreds of colleges nationwide, more students have been willing to join the conversation.

Miles H. Robinson is a sophomore at Pomona College, which, like Claremont McKenna, is part of the consortium in California known as the Claremont Colleges. He said he was dismayed by the angry turn that demonstrations at nearby Claremont McKenna took, as well as one at Dartmouth College.

"When you see people swearing at professors or at the president of the college, or storming into the library and yelling at other students, that doesn’t seem like the best way to make progress," he said. "I can’t agree with the increasing polarization or demonization of students just because they happen to be white."

Experts on race relations and social movements say it’s hardly surprising that minority students who agree on the need for a more welcoming, inclusive campus environment might disagree about the best way to get there. In some cases, those divisions have brought about a more-nuanced approach toward protesting, where some students of color have toned down their demonstrations and revisited their demands.
Capitalizing on Momentum

Nationwide, the black student population is "not a monolithic group," said Shaun R. Harper, executive director of the Center for the Study of Race and Equity in Education at the University of Pennsylvania. "Some people think it’s absolutely time to take it to the streets, and others feel a more behind-the-scenes approach to negotiating is the way to go," Mr. Harper said.

But at a time when social-media networks like Twitter and Facebook are turning grass-roots organizing into minute-by-minute activism, there is little time to build consensus.

"Students are worried that if they don’t act right now, while this is hot, that things are going to go back to business as usual on their campuses," Mr. Harper said. "Given the pace at which they’re pulling together their strategies, there isn’t enough time to vet them with a large segment of the student body." Students, he said, are motivated today by "a unique blend of inspiration and desperation."

June Beshea, a senior at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a member of a coalition of student organizers called the Real Silent Sam, said her group aimed to capitalize on the heightened attention during a protest last week. The group interrupted a forum on race that was organized by Carol L. Folt, the university’s chancellor, and read off a list of 50 demands, which included "the elimination of tuition and fees for all students" and "divestment from policing" altogether.

"We wanted to take up a lot of space and make people feel a little uncomfortable and really think about these issues," Ms. Beshea said.

Disrespectful behavior 'represents us as minority students, even though we're not participating.'
Those methods, however, have provoked the ire of some students. Both the demonstration and the demands at Chapel Hill drew widespread criticism on social media. And a similar interruption at a forum at the University of Kansas prompted its Black Student Union to issue a statement last week clarifying that the group was not affiliated with the protesters.

Such disrespectful behavior, said Brylan Donaldson, a junior at Kansas, "represents us as minority students, even though we’re not participating." When people ask Mr. Donaldson how he feels about the recent protests, he tells them: "Don’t even put me close to that."

Mr. Robinson, of Pomona, participated in a sit-in on his campus last week that ended with the college’s president agreeing to some of the students’ demands. The protest, he said, was largely a success, drawing attention to what he considers isolated instances of racism on the campus. Still, he felt uncomfortable afterward.

Watching the president apologize for systemic racism at the college seemed "absurd," said Mr. Robinson, who lived in Shanghai for nine years — an upbringing that he realizes gives him somewhat of an outsider’s perspective on the injustices his black classmates are describing. "It felt like during the Cultural Revolution in China, where teachers were forced to confess when their views weren’t in line with the party’s."
More-Attainable Demands

Hastily-drawn-up demands that seem rigid and uncompromising and easy fodder for critics have given way to more-realistic compromises on some campuses.

During a sit-in that lasted more than eight hours last week, the interim president of Towson University, Timothy Chandler, went through protesters’ list of demands line by line, and he and the students forged a compromise agreement. Similarly, during an overnight sit-in at Princeton University, protesters spent nearly six hours in a meeting with President Christopher L. Eisgruber and made some of their requests more attainable.

Even though some students of color at Princeton have criticized the methods of the protesters — who are part of a group called the Black Justice League — Destiny Crockett, a Princeton junior, stressed the importance of intense displays of activism. She said she and other members of the organization had met regularly with administrators for months about their demands.

"We got tired of sitting in meetings and nothing happening and no processes even beginning," Ms. Crockett said. For now, she is pleased, but not yet satisfied, with the administration’s commitment to their cause.

At Missouri, activists faced an intense national backlash for barring the news media from their encampment the day the president and chancellor resigned. The following day they posted signs and handed out fliers welcoming media coverage.

"We’ve had to become flexible," said Reuben Faloughi, a third-year doctoral student in psychology and one of the original 11 members of the group that calls itself Concerned Student 1950.

After meetings in which hundreds of students showed up to vent their feelings, "We’ve met super-late into the night, adjusting as we went along," Mr. Faloughi said. "The movement doesn’t stop, and all the time, you know you’re being watched."

Behind-the-scenes discussions also prompted a change in strategy at Amherst College, in Massachusetts. Activists who had faced criticism over their initial list of demands later stated that their goals "would be best met by collaboration with administrators, faculty, and staff over an extended period of time." They ended a sit-in after the college’s president, Carolyn A. (Biddy) Martin, issued a statement that they said "offered clarification and hope."

"The tactics and strategies are changing so quickly," said Angus Johnston, a historian of student activism at the City University of New York’s Hostos Community College. "Students are learning as they go."

Students have been reluctant to describe the debates that led to the compromises at Missouri and Amherst. "In most cases, the activists aren’t eager to air their disagreements in public," Mr. Johnston said. "They’re going to want to have those conversations behind closed doors so they can present a unified face to the world."
Overarching Goals

Still, the disagreement among black students about strategies should not delegitimize the overarching goals they share, said Clarence E. Lang, an associate professor and chair of the department of African-American studies at Kansas. In conversations with Kansas students, he said he didn’t think there was much contention about the need to foster a more-inclusive campus culture.

"I think oftentimes in these moments, there’s an impulse to want to dismiss or deflect the issues by pointing to the fact that, Oh, there seems to be disagreement among folks who are raising salient points," said Mr. Lang, whose recent book, Black America in the Shadow of the Sixties, relates the civil-rights era to contemporary black culture. "I think it is important that we stay focused on the concerns and grievances that have been expressed."

Mr. Donaldson has formed a new group at Kansas with three other students in hopes of doing just that. Its purpose, he said, is to identify questions the campus community has and then to use an entrepreneurial method known as design thinking to engage students, faculty, and staff in finding solutions.

The group — dubbed TEAMJayhawks — planned to tackle race and inclusion first, he said. He hoped to work with the Black Student Union and other campus organizations. "We want to create an environment," he said, "where people feel safe collaborating on issues like these."

wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 16:30 (eight years ago) link

the brilliant doug williams on 'the semester of discontent'

http://gawker.com/the-mizzou-blueprint-how-to-fight-for-higher-education-1744170455

All of this might seem extraordinary. But only because the U.S. isn’t used to this sort of thing. Throughout the rest of the Americas—nay, the rest of the world—the spirit of revolt against a model of higher education that devalues the worth of working-class students and the overwhelming population of contingent labor that teaches them has been underway for quite some time.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:00 (eight years ago) link

This data was taken in the 2003-2004 school year, and with the adjunctification (yes, I just made that word up) of higher education,

actually

j., Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:14 (eight years ago) link


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