ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

Firstestershire

I would like dual nationality so I can use both firstly AND oftentimes. How I love oftentimes.

I'd say that in Britain 'farther' is hardly used and 'further' just covers all those meanings.

xp

zoe espera, it sounds like you had the same job i had in spain for two years... auxiliar de conversación...?

Yep, that would be me. Auxiliar in the bilingual programme in Madrid. Where roughly were you? And did you like it? I'm on line 9 in the South East.

Have to say, I've learnt probably as much about English and English grammar as I did when I was a journalist (if not more).

And, I'm not sure if drumming grammar into kids' heads is always the best way. Just masses of exposure to another language seems to be the way. Could really do with some sort of basic text on bilingual learning, if anyone can recommend one...

ZE, I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but the Oxford Language Toolkit will probably be a great help. I've never been entirely sure who it's aimed at -- I get the impression it's non-native fluent English speakers -- but it's cleared up many a messy grammar fight at work.

Hope all is good out there. You likely to be back on these shores at any point soon?

Ah yes! You've mentioned that to me before and I've totally ignored you! How immensely rude.

All the same I'm still on the look out for research on bilingual learning/teaching.

Things are very good and, yes, I'll be BACK (at least in London) at the end of June and defo further north at some point before October. You will informed, course. Hi to all!

I've bought the toolkit. Cheers!

Superb. Hope you find it as useful as I have!

Keep me posted about ceremonial visits etc and I shall roll out the red carpet ;)

looking at adjective order and comma usage...is the (only) rule that you use commas when trad adjective order is broken? like:

my dear old dad
vs
my old, dear dad
?

i guess as well there's smthg like: if changing the order of the words would change the sense of the phrase then you don't use a comma? is that right? are there any other instances where you'd/not use a comma which can be explained by a rule?

(that last question just in the context of a series of adjectives)

I don't think that's so much of a "rule" as an expressive choice you get to make in the moment. The comma between adjectives gets omitted mostly in instances where the phrase feels comfortable or natural as it is, comfortable and natural enough that the comma feels somehow fussy; the example above seems more like an example of that than anything about adjective order in general.

Is there a difference when one adjective is modifying the following adjective as opposed to just being another modifier of the noun?

I mean, we could probably make a list of common adjectives that tend not to take that comma -- adjectives like "big" and "old" and colors -- but in the end I think it's just a subjective and socially informed choice depending on stuff like the tone you want.

xpost - not sure exactly what you're envisioning there, S, but yeah, the comma would theoretically drop

xp e.g. boring, bitter man vs. boring bitter man

Would you punctuate differently if the phrase was describing the man as boring and bitter, or if it was describing one of two bitter men, only one of whom was boring?

the second only if talking about a man who likes to drink bitter (as in, "Me, I'm a bitter man.")

Oh, S, that's almost more of a restrictive/non-restrictive issue -- yeah, you'd drop the comma if you meant the latter, the same as you'd say "the tall man on the left" (to distinguish) and "the tall man, on the left" (to describe). It'd be a risky way of differentiating in that case, though! (Ha: some people might even italicize "boring" to be clear.)

For the record, for expressive/literary or informal or fast-paced writing, I'm pretty fond with the way you can drop loads of this particular comma and describe, say, "the big white looming high-towered mansion at the end of the block" -- the commas are definitely a more formal concern -- but even that example is based on having a manageable string of adjectives that's still clear and feels natural in a rush.

thanks, nabisco. it's tough because i'm helping non-native speakers, so they won't have that intuitive sense of when it should be used, hence my looking for hard and fast rules. they're going to be memorizing from a chart, basically, so that you usu use adjectives in the same order, based on type (opinion -> size -> age -> shape -> color, etc.). from what i've read, it seems like you need to use a comma if you're rearranging those types for some reason, barring some weird exception.

xpost - "There were two bitter men in the corner, one of whom was interesting and one of whom was boring. The interesting bitter man was telling a story; the boring bitter man was staring off into space."

xpost - yeah, Rent, I think rearrangement can make you want the comma because the order can become unusual and not have that natural flow. Would it really be so bad for them to just be taught that, say, a couple basic adjectives together don't need the comma, but more or more complex words do? I'm trying to compare to being an English-speaker learning something like French, where certain simple adjectives come before nouns, but most adjectives do not; you just have to pick up a sense of which are which.

use adjectives in the same order, based on type (opinion -> size -> age -> shape -> color, etc.).

Is that true? Is "white 16 year-old boy" incorrect? "16 year-old white boy" sounds kinda derogatory.

xxp maybe a good rule of thumb is to not use a comma if the adjectives have only one syllable.

dear old dad vs. beloved, antiquated dad

i think age more as in you'd say the old white man & not the white old man, unless his whiteness was the particularly relevant?

new green building
green new building

xp rent: to me, it seems like the order would be dependent on the context.

I always think of this example: "big brown paper bag."

Are you describing a) a brown paper bag that happens to be big, b) a paper bag that is both big and brown, or c) a bag that is big, brown, and made of paper?

There may not be an obvious answer to that question, but it should dictate in a general sense whether you should use commas and where.

ooo, yeah, that's good

definitely, sarahel. i suppose it's just convention in most cases to follow that order, unless the context dictates otherwise. like for example jaymc's big brown paper bag (size, color, material) fits the pattern. and if you wanted to add more (big old brown paper bag or whatever) the tendency is to stick to the order. i'm still working a lot of this out.

that's a really helpful way of thinking about it, jaymc.

For instance, in that example, I doubt that one would ever want to use (c), because the term "paper bag" is so often thought of as a single entity that it would seem odd to use "paper" as merely a descriptive adjective modifying "bag."

I'd likewise make the case that "brown paper bag" is also an entity like that (there are 10 times as many Google hits for "brown paper bag" as for "red paper bag"), but it's entirely possible that someone could be talking about a paper bag that's colored brown and yet does not look like this:
http://www.boston.com/ae/sidekick/blog/Brown_paper_bag.jpg

...in which case (b) might be preferable.

quick one - i need to know whether the use of "whereby" is acceptable in modern English.

It's for a job app, example: "I thrive under pressure, especially as a promoter whereby a last minute decision can affect the whole course of an event".

I think it's acceptable, but I'm not sure you're using it correctly. My Concise Oxford says it means 'by which'.

yeah that's not a correct use of "whereby"

yeah i figured as much. "by which" sounds a bit clunky too though.. ho hum, must rewrite.

You want "for whom", but pace whom-haters.

yeah, i changed it around and included "for whom". still not mad on it, but it may have to do.

Perhaps you should say: "I thrive under pressure. As a promoter, I've regularly had to make last minute decisions that could affect the whole course of an event." ... unless you haven't had to make these decisions ...

yeah i was just going to suggest that

[the next grozart likes this]

It shows that you have successfully operated under pressure, as opposed to had a potentially high-pressure job. If you have good anecdotes of this, this would prompt the potential interviewer to ask for them.

Whereby the bell tolls

it's an awkward sentence, but i'd say "from whom" rather than "for whom" to replace "whereby" up there. the decision is coming from the promoter, it's not for him

Is a "but" after a semicolon correct? How?

context?

Say, "he was first and formost my Father; but since day one he was my best friend in the entire world."

Isn't the semicolon a de facto conjunction, rendering the "but" redundant?

some may disagree but i would not use a semicolon there

It needs a comma instead, and no cap on Father.

if you keep the but use a comma
if you get rid of the but use a semicolon

also formost is spelled wrong

sorry, i'm working on a paper away from my style guide ... is there a consensus about how long a quote should be in a paper before it is moved from just being quoted within a paragraph to being separated out into its own indented paragraph?

i think i always used the indent for quotes of about three lines or greater

it seems sort of dependent on the format of your page in general, though -- you know, whichever looks more natural and clear