Sufjan Stevens’ Carrie & Lowell

Fall, death, and a good latte to set the mood.

Nothing sets the mood for road suicide like deciduous fall colors and a visit to the dentist.

mmm, pumpkin spice

I actually meant because my depressive tendencies usually start to come out around this time of year

Haha <3

this album is great, I agree, and I did not seriously think you meant it that way.

no it's cool, I lol'd

did any of u see the current tour? considering buying tixxx

Heard only ecstatic reports from friends.

I actively hated/hate Illinois and haven't given this guy's music a chance since but goon tie told me "no seriously this new one" and I have to admit it's great

I saw him in April and it was absolutely wonderful, don't miss it!

It's interesting to me how he previously seemed to mostly make records that were dressed up in ironic kitsch but sad underneath and now he just made a sad record and it's better.

I saw this guy live back in 2003 or 2004. I remember it was kind of a peak time of being disillusioned with America, and this guy stood up there dressed like a boy scout and sang an absolutely gorgeous rendition of the Star Spangled Banner (or 'My Country Tis of Thee', or something ha). It was p compelling.

It's interesting to me how he previously seemed to mostly make records that were dressed up in ironic kitsch but sad underneath and now he just made a sad record and it's better.

― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, October 27, 2015 8:33 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Good post. I've always failed to connect with his work because the prettiness of it got in the way, for me. Until now.

This is one of the artists that I think ILM always makes fun of since it gets thrown with the lol indie audience. I don't know how much Carrie & Lowell will change your perspective on him but he's been doing this sort of thing since he started. Michigan and Seven Swans are great records in this sad vein.
Illinois was probably a more popular album and that one is certainly more unsophisticated due to the amount of needless orchestration and maximalism, let alone the ridiculous costumes... I assume that's the record most people think about when they think of Sufjan and that's the reason why they throw so much shit at him, but even on that album there were some gems like 'John Wayne Gacy' and 'Casimir Pulaski Day'.

Also forgot 'Concerning the UFO Sighting Near Highland', that's a great piano riff.

^^ OTM imo

really strongly dislike that John Wayne Gacy song

ugh yes. the Illinois record is basically "chicago" and "casimir pulaski day"

oh man, "Jacksonville", "The Man From Metropolis Steals Our Hearts", and "The Tallest somethingorother" are all great too. I still think the album's great. y'all need to stop pickin on Sufjan.

sufjan, contrapuntal madness, 'BQE', 20+ minute long songs, and all, is on par with steven wilson in quality prog-outs. wilson hasn't come near pulling off something as emotionally devastating as 'carrie & lowell' though

really strongly dislike that John Wayne Gacy song

― tremendous crime wave and killing wave (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, October 28, 2015 5:55 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this song really is absurd

I kinda love to hate read this, though: http://genius.com/Sufjan-stevens-john-wayne-gacy-jr-lyrics/

I can't really deal with the Gacy song, but man Seven Swans is so good, doesn't have the ornamentation that can make Illinoise a slog. It holds back on anything over-the-top until the climax of the title track, and then it totally works.

the one about the wasp is really great

^probably my favourite on Illinois

agree re Seven Swans. much stronger overall than the "state" records, tho "romulus," "chicago" and "casimir pulaski day" are my touchstone tracks.

Additional note: Am I crazy if I believe Seven Swans is indebted to Steve Reich? The opening three songs specially: 'In the devil's territory', 'all the trees in the field' and 'dress looks nice on you' are all built on top of banjo/guitar patterns that remind me strongly of Reich.

wait, what's so bad about the Gacy song?

your love light passes through completely, on the willow

And in my best behavior
I am really just like him
Look beneath the floor boards
For the secrets I have hid

this is one of the most narcissistic acts of writing in the history of song. feeling kinda shitty about how you are as a person and moping about it is not actually "just like" mass fucking murder and it's really a bad look to even suggest it

You must remember two things: Sufjan is a born again Christian and it permeates most of his lyrics and he's focusing on Gacy's childhood. Sure, a song condemning such a horrific person would be more apt but from Sufjan's scope he's reminding us about the belief that all men are sinful and unworthy of god unless they repent. Gacy's troubled childhood is also at the center of the song so he might also be trying to express how people turn bad by nurture and it can't be controlled.

So, point is, from a Christian point of view we're all equals. As capable of evil and good as any other person and as deserving of forgiveness no matter how bad our sins.

Not my personal belief but that's the context I think.

also he is a murderer

of Christmas songs

this is one of the most narcissistic acts of writing in the history of song. feeling kinda shitty about how you are as a person and moping about it is not actually "just like" mass fucking murder and it's really a bad look to even suggest it

― tremendous crime wave and killing wave (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi)

doesn't bother me at all, but i do appreciate the explanation!

Moka i think for the most part posters itt "get it;" just find it obtuse and unsuccessful.

There's a connection somewhat to 'A good man is hard to find' which is based on the short story with the same name and is written from the Misfit's pov. It's a much better song but it seems to be a fixation of his. Faith as a burden.

I have a good friend who belongs to a charismatic christian church* and he is totally OK with the closing stanza of John Wayne Gacy, saying that it is absolutely the correct position in the eyes of god and the polar opposite of narcissism. I think it's fucking bonkers, but whatever.

I'm still waiting for the right time to listen to Carrie and Lowell.

*we agree on pretty much everything else. After several too many heated conversations about religion, we just don't discuss it any more.

Identifying with the most revolting kind of sinner in the name of Christian humility seems like the opposite of narcissistic. It is, however, problematic in that this kind of thinking is exactly the sort of thing that has inculcated self loathing among Christians through the centuries.

It's also a view that has tended to be pushed as a form of social control

In some ways, though, the hate the sin not the sinner/who among us is blameless? etc ethos is the main thing I've carried with me from my Catholic upbringing. At its best, this helps me be more patient and also to consider other people's circumstances. At its worst, it causes me to make excuses for others and tolerate being treated like garbage. All ethical systems have their holes

Identifying with the most revolting kind of sinner in the name of Christian humility seems like the opposite of narcissistic.

it's picking the big garish sinner and saying "I'm like him in that I too have things I wouldn't admit to others" that's kinda gross imo. like, we all have some shit we're ashamed of, but no, in fact, being a fallen human is not the same as murdering a lot of kids and there isn't a coherent theology that makes such a claim either

Then he's inadvertently exposing a great flaw in the Christian belief system.

I think he's paraphrasing the Nihilist Spasm Band: "So you think the CN Tower is the world's tallest freestanding structure? What about me?"

xp we've finally found one

"Identifying with the most revolting kind of sinner in the name of Christian humility seems like the opposite of narcissistic. It is, however, problematic in that this kind of thinking is exactly the sort of thing that has inculcated self loathing among Christians through the centuries."

Yeah but being in that state of self loathing isn't a right state of place for a Christian to be. You identify yourself as a sinner, but you are then saved from the self-loathing through the realisation that Jesus forgave and died for you in that state, and so the Love of God overcomes the self-loathing and all is set right.

The problem comes when the dichotomy of Salvation/Sinfulness is out of balance in a believers life. When a Christian forget's their sinfulness, that's when the holier-than-thou, better-than-all-those-sinners Christian comes out. And when a Christians forgets the Salvation (or doesn't yet know their salvation), that's when the terrible, depressing self-loathing, Christian comes out.

Every Christian has to make sure these are in balance, and I see the whole song as Sufjan writing to himself, keeping himself in check, remembering his sinfulness, not as to dwell on it in a self-loathing way, but to humble himself and guard himself from a holier-than-though mentality.
Whether he should have used an actual historical event to get across that point, that's another story.

I was in a clothes shop the other day and this album was playing. Everyone looked pretty glum.

He is on a five amazing album run, in my opinion, Michigan onwards it's all very good. There a very few (any ?) contemporary artists on such a run.

I can think of one artist on a 24 amazing books run

and this was released after Michigan
http://991.com/gallery_180x180/Sufjan-Stevens-Songs-For-Christm-383531-991.jpg